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Re: OT Right To Work .p.jm 01-19-2009
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Posted by Alexander on January 20, 2009, 2:08 am
The King wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:16:03 -0500, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
> wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> funny thing here is that usually any workers that do choose to excercize
>>> their "right to work" will still end up drawing full union pay and
>>> benefits--IOW just dont pay any union dues.
>>         In my experience, that doesn't hold. The union members, and
>> union shop stewards, negotiated ALL payscales, and by funny
>> coincidence the job titles where the people in those titles were union
>> members got $ 4 / hour raises, while the job titles where the people
>> in them ( like me ) were NOT in the union, got $ 0.40 / hour.
>>         And the union rep got REAL pissed when he was asked about this
>> ( by me ) in his own meeting.
>>> http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/right-to-work
>>> "Defenders of right-to-work laws tend to argue that workers who refuse to
>>> join unions mainly do so because they just do not value the collective
>>> bargaining services that unions perform and/or because they disagree with
>>> the political causes that unions support with their dues money. Opponents of
>>> right-to-work laws tend to see refusal to join a union mainly as attempting
>>> to be a free rider who enjoys the very real benefits of union representation
>>> without having to pay his fair share of the cost."
>>         Union payscales , by definition, say that 'people get paid
>> according to job title and seniority',
>
> Yup. That's why a journeyman makes more than a greenhorn apprentice.

And an Engineer writes his own contract and lives up to it. Try and fire
a Deadwood Unionist. Its damned near as bad as getting rid of a civil
Service deadbeat.

>
>> where some people ( like me )
>> believe that people should be paid based on things like job skills,
>> work productivity, etc.
>
> Which is how it works. Low skilled apprentice don't get journeyman
> rates. And they don't make journeyman unless they can do the job.

A large portion of Journeyman are deadbeats that could easily be
replaced by a hardworking ambitious apprentice. Most of these Journeyman
jobs can be handled by a 6 month trainee. This is being proven by both
the Chinese and India.. And they even have to learn a new language.
The largest portion of new homes and businesses today are wired by
Apprentice Electricians with very few if any Journeyman or masters even
on the Job. Even Code classes are in the public domain rather then under
Union control. Plumbing is much the same.. HVAC installers are usually
at the bottom of the heap too. Sometimes a real Tech will tune things at
completion. Heavy Industrial and Commercial equipment is usually set in
and hooked up by riggers and plumbers/Electricians. In our offshore and
foreign oil fields there are high wages, generous benefits and NOOOO Unions.

>
>
>
>
>

Posted by The King on January 19, 2009, 8:51 pm
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:41:32 -0500, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:28:14 -0500, The King
>>On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:16:03 -0500, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>>wrote:
>>>wrote:
>>>>funny thing here is that usually any workers that do choose to excercize
>>>>their "right to work" will still end up drawing full union pay and
>>>>benefits--IOW just dont pay any union dues.
>>>        In my experience, that doesn't hold. The union members, and
>>>union shop stewards, negotiated ALL payscales, and by funny
>>>coincidence the job titles where the people in those titles were union
>>>members got $ 4 / hour raises, while the job titles where the people
>>>in them ( like me ) were NOT in the union, got $ 0.40 / hour.
>>>        And the union rep got REAL pissed when he was asked about this
>>>( by me ) in his own meeting.
>>>>http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/right-to-work
>>>>"Defenders of right-to-work laws tend to argue that workers who refuse to
>>>>join unions mainly do so because they just do not value the collective
>>>>bargaining services that unions perform and/or because they disagree with
>>>>the political causes that unions support with their dues money. Opponents of
>>>>right-to-work laws tend to see refusal to join a union mainly as attempting
>>>>to be a free rider who enjoys the very real benefits of union representation
>>>>without having to pay his fair share of the cost."
>>>        Union payscales , by definition, say that 'people get paid
>>>according to job title and seniority',
>>Yup. That's why a journeyman makes more than a greenhorn apprentice.
>        That's why an incompetent journeyman makes more than an
>excellent greehorn who knows and does twice as much.
An excellent greenhorn will someday be a journeyman but only after he
shows he can do the job and has the proper training. Some never make
it.
>>>where some people ( like me )
>>>believe that people should be paid based on things like job skills,
>>>work productivity, etc.
>>Which is how it works. Low skilled apprentice don't get journeyman
>>rates. And they don't make journeyman unless they can do the job.
>        Bullshit. They get promoted when seniority SAYS they get
>promoted, and nothing else. First in = first up, period.

Wrong. I've seen plenty of apprentices never make it. Why? Because
they, for whatever reason couldn't do the job.

Posted by Don Ocean on January 20, 2009, 2:11 am
The King wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:41:32 -0500, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:28:14 -0500, The King
>>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:16:03 -0500, .p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> funny thing here is that usually any workers that do choose to excercize
>>>>> their "right to work" will still end up drawing full union pay and
>>>>> benefits--IOW just dont pay any union dues.
>>>>         In my experience, that doesn't hold. The union members, and
>>>> union shop stewards, negotiated ALL payscales, and by funny
>>>> coincidence the job titles where the people in those titles were union
>>>> members got $ 4 / hour raises, while the job titles where the people
>>>> in them ( like me ) were NOT in the union, got $ 0.40 / hour.
>>>>         And the union rep got REAL pissed when he was asked about this
>>>> ( by me ) in his own meeting.
>>>>> http://www.auburn.edu/~johnspm/gloss/right-to-work
>>>>> "Defenders of right-to-work laws tend to argue that workers who refuse to
>>>>> join unions mainly do so because they just do not value the collective
>>>>> bargaining services that unions perform and/or because they disagree with
>>>>> the political causes that unions support with their dues money. Opponents
of
>>>>> right-to-work laws tend to see refusal to join a union mainly as attempting
>>>>> to be a free rider who enjoys the very real benefits of union
representation
>>>>> without having to pay his fair share of the cost."
>>>>         Union payscales , by definition, say that 'people get paid
>>>> according to job title and seniority',
>>> Yup. That's why a journeyman makes more than a greenhorn apprentice.
>>         That's why an incompetent journeyman makes more than an
>> excellent greehorn who knows and does twice as much.
> An excellent greenhorn will someday be a journeyman but only after he
> shows he can do the job and has the proper training. Some never make
> it.
>>>> where some people ( like me )
>>>> believe that people should be paid based on things like job skills,
>>>> work productivity, etc.
>>> Which is how it works. Low skilled apprentice don't get journeyman
>>> rates. And they don't make journeyman unless they can do the job.
>>         Bullshit. They get promoted when seniority SAYS they get
>> promoted, and nothing else. First in = first up, period.
>
> Wrong. I've seen plenty of apprentices never make it. Why? Because
> they, for whatever reason couldn't do the job.

More likely couldn't stand the Deadbeats that stood in their way by
rights of Seniority.

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