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HVAC Discussions - Heating, ventilation and air conditioning.
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Posted by Richard J Kinch on August 9, 2006, 4:24 am
~^Johnny^~ writes:
>>R-22 has superior physical and economical properties to any alternative.
> Except R-290. Still used in Europe, too.
Well, yes, but I don't mean THAT kind of alternative. I mean like R-134a
or Puron.
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Posted by mm on August 4, 2006, 2:40 am
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:50:40 -0500, Richard J Kinch
>Noon-Air writes:
>
>> http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html
>
>Typical Al Gore EPA baloney.
It's fun to blame Al Gore, I'm sure, but the Republicans have ruled
the EPA for 5 1/2 years now.
> This only applies to certain "developed
>nations";
That's what it says.
>the rest of the world will make more R-22 than we ever did or
>would have.
So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.
I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.
If other countries, don't accept the Montreal Protocols, that's the
way it is.
Just like has happened with R-12. Look what's happened to the
>ozone since!
>
>Investment tip: Get the EPA license (http://www.epatest.com/) and stockpile
>R-22. The people that did this in the early 1990s with R-12 bought it at
>$1/lb and sold it for $50/lb.
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Posted by Richard J Kinch on August 4, 2006, 4:17 pm
mm writes:
> So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
> schedule provides.
>
> I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
> that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
> that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
> legally available IN THE US.
The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US
government to forcibly create a completely artificial shortage (in the
US only) of an economically very valuable substance. Supposedly this is
to lower emissions into the atmosphere, but even if you grant the
dubious desirability of that goal, the artificial shortage is absurd
since the third world has no such restriction and has every incentive to
outproduce us and to wildly out-emit anything the 1st world ever did
with this substance, as it already is doing today.
Furthermore, there will be no shortage in the US: R-22 will be available
forever under this regime, even after 2020, just like the banned R-12,
being that the *manufacture in the US* (not the possession, trading, or
stockpiling) is what the G-men with guns will be shooting at, such that
the price will skyrocket and bootlegging will be richly profitable.
This is entirely a repeat of R-12 in the early 1990s, which played out
exactly this way on a faster phase-out schedule.
Remember, a $50 drum of R-12 bought in 1990 turned into a $1500 gem in a
matter of 5 years. You may want to consider an EPA license and a
stockpile of R-22 in your investment portfolio.
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Posted by Jim Stewart on August 4, 2006, 4:38 pm
Richard J Kinch wrote:
> mm writes:
>
>
>>So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
>>schedule provides.
>>
>>I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
>>that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
>>that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
>>legally available IN THE US.
>
>
> The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US
> government to forcibly create a completely artificial shortage (in the
> US only) of an economically very valuable substance.
Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon. Since the 'good' freon
has fresh patents and sells for a lot more than
the 'bad' they stand to make a buttload of money
off the deal.
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Posted by Richard J Kinch on August 4, 2006, 4:45 pm
Jim Stewart writes:
> Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
> their snout in the trough. Their patents had
> expired on the 'bad' freon.
Small change compared to what the trade stands to gain. Much higher
pressures for the new stuff inevitably makes it less efficient, harder to
install, and more frequent to fail, in comparison to what would have been
the case with the old stuff. This is thermodynamic certainty. Sure it can
work, and tomorrow's models may even work better than today's models, but
it just cannot ever work as well as the more ideal R-22 at lower pressures.
Everybody in the biz gains, the consumer loses.
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