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HVAC Discussions - Heating, ventilation and air conditioning.
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Posted by Jean on February 16, 2009, 11:30 am
wrote:
>Steve wrote:
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gfnmVB5q3c&NR=1
>>>> I have a Goodman GSZ (installed Nov) that has started making the same
>>>> noise during defrost. There is also a neighbor with a Frigidaire that
>>>> makes a similar noise during defrost. He had an HVAC tech come and
>>>> tell him that is the way these things work. That was a quick 100
>>>> bucks.
>>>> I am waiting for a HVAC tech to come but if he also tells me this is
>>>> "normal" the world will have one less HVAC tech ;)
>>>> I paid $540 for commisioning the unit - 3 hours labour. The $40 was
>>>> for a filter/drier. After checking I've found that there was a drier
>>>> already installed so this was a waste. BTW, records show 6.6 ounces of
>>>> R410 was added for tubing but none for extra filter.
>>>> The unit ran fairly quiet for about two months until the temp went
>>>> down to 20F. Should there be a crankcase heater?
>>>> Frosting rarely completely covers coils - not much icing on bottom
>>>> sections. Defrost setting at 30 minutes.
>>>> How well do the sound blankets on the compressor work?
>>>> Looking forward to the replies - good, bad, funny AND ugly......
>>> As there were no replies to this, I'll try to answer it myself.
>>> (still awaiting the (new) HVAC tech to come and perform his magic.)
>>> In the meantime, I installed a crankcase heater and sound blanket and
>>> found that the accumulator was rattling on startup due to missing nut
>>> on mounting bolt. This caused the sounds to be exacerbated.
>>> I think the problem is scroll compressor slugging on foam created by
>>> insufficient refrigerant or migration.
>>> Original charge was to be by weight.
>>> Factory charge: 35.14 oz
>>> Extra line charge: 6 oz
>>> Missing charge for unneeded filter: approx 6 oz
>>> I checked refrigerant charge using the hot gas method (I'm a retired
>>> industrial instrumentation tech so this was no big deal) and found a
>>> temperature rise of 119 on the hot gas line.
>>> I also ran the unit on a cold, humid day for an extended period and
>>> found VERY distinct frost banding on bottoms of coil sections. This
>>> unit is at my mother's house so I did not find out about problems till
>>> recently so I cannot say when it started. The low refrigerant may also
>>> be caused by leak in system. If so, I'll be pretty pissed off if it's
>>> in one of the installer's connections!
>>> I called the owner of the original heating/HVAC company and he tried
>>> to bullshit me. I should have recorded his dumb comments as he tried
>>> to explain the above and say it's "normal". He would not allow me to
>>> speak directly to the tech. He wants another $500 to remove the filter
>>> and adjust refrigerant. From his comments, I figure he is an old
>>> heating dude that got into the HVAC business by hiring an HVAC tech
>>> and doesn't know much himself.
>>> I had two quotes for original installation which entailed brazing
>>> connecting refrigerant tubing, adding appropriate amount of
>>> refrigerant and checking system operation. Electrical and mechanical
>>> installation was already done. Unit was running on aux heat and
>>> airflow checked using measured line voltage and current of strip
>>> heater in conjunction with temp probes. (756 CFM at medium fan speed
>>> for 2 Ton unit)
>>> The two quotes were $500 and $350. I took the higher because I wanted
>>> a good job done. Go figure....
>>> I have expanded heating data charts (ambient from 65 to -10) for
>>> installed split-system to make life easier for tech. BTW, all this
>>> information (including fact that filter was already installed) was
>>> available for original tech but he just thumbed through it and
>>> proceeded to do his job. I trusted him. Now I wonder if he
>>> contaminated the system during install.
>>> Will post results from new HVAC tech when he finishes.
>>
>> Goodman equipment is a half step above Intertherm mobile home junk. Consumer
>> Reports doesn't even rate Goodman because there are so many problems because
>> of internet sales and lowest bidder installs. Did the tech even pull a
>> vacuum on the system before charging? Did he even own a micron gage, let
>> alone how to use it?? or... did he just let the vacuum pump run for 15 or 20
>> minutes and call it good?? BTW... 30 min defrost cycles waste energy. Demand
>> defrost is preferable.
>Mow that is amusing. Consumers Report qualifies Goodman equipment by the
>many names the same unit is manufactured under and each one is scored
>differently. The same goes for other companies that manufacture the
>same units under different names. Actually Goodman seems to be as good
>as the best in longevity. I don't deal in them, but I do repair a lot of
>very old units. I can name several that don't seem to last that long.
>Carrier seems to have a shorter lifespan as an example..As does Lennox.
>Some of the oldest stuff out there is Mueller and Janitrol. Don't forget
>New Holland and Chicago foundries. You do know of course who makes Sears
>stuff?
>>
In my search for info on this problem, I came across Amana data sheets
- the actual instructions, diagrams and parts list are identical
copies of the Goodman ones. They just changed the cover sheets.
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Posted by Bubba on February 16, 2009, 9:05 pm
>wrote:
>>Steve wrote:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gfnmVB5q3c&NR=1
>>>>> I have a Goodman GSZ (installed Nov) that has started making the same
>>>>> noise during defrost. There is also a neighbor with a Frigidaire that
>>>>> makes a similar noise during defrost. He had an HVAC tech come and
>>>>> tell him that is the way these things work. That was a quick 100
>>>>> bucks.
>>>>> I am waiting for a HVAC tech to come but if he also tells me this is
>>>>> "normal" the world will have one less HVAC tech ;)
>>>>> I paid $540 for commisioning the unit - 3 hours labour. The $40 was
>>>>> for a filter/drier. After checking I've found that there was a drier
>>>>> already installed so this was a waste. BTW, records show 6.6 ounces of
>>>>> R410 was added for tubing but none for extra filter.
>>>>> The unit ran fairly quiet for about two months until the temp went
>>>>> down to 20F. Should there be a crankcase heater?
>>>>> Frosting rarely completely covers coils - not much icing on bottom
>>>>> sections. Defrost setting at 30 minutes.
>>>>> How well do the sound blankets on the compressor work?
>>>>> Looking forward to the replies - good, bad, funny AND ugly......
>>>> As there were no replies to this, I'll try to answer it myself.
>>>> (still awaiting the (new) HVAC tech to come and perform his magic.)
>>>> In the meantime, I installed a crankcase heater and sound blanket and
>>>> found that the accumulator was rattling on startup due to missing nut
>>>> on mounting bolt. This caused the sounds to be exacerbated.
>>>> I think the problem is scroll compressor slugging on foam created by
>>>> insufficient refrigerant or migration.
>>>> Original charge was to be by weight.
>>>> Factory charge: 35.14 oz
>>>> Extra line charge: 6 oz
>>>> Missing charge for unneeded filter: approx 6 oz
>>>> I checked refrigerant charge using the hot gas method (I'm a retired
>>>> industrial instrumentation tech so this was no big deal) and found a
>>>> temperature rise of 119 on the hot gas line.
>>>> I also ran the unit on a cold, humid day for an extended period and
>>>> found VERY distinct frost banding on bottoms of coil sections. This
>>>> unit is at my mother's house so I did not find out about problems till
>>>> recently so I cannot say when it started. The low refrigerant may also
>>>> be caused by leak in system. If so, I'll be pretty pissed off if it's
>>>> in one of the installer's connections!
>>>> I called the owner of the original heating/HVAC company and he tried
>>>> to bullshit me. I should have recorded his dumb comments as he tried
>>>> to explain the above and say it's "normal". He would not allow me to
>>>> speak directly to the tech. He wants another $500 to remove the filter
>>>> and adjust refrigerant. From his comments, I figure he is an old
>>>> heating dude that got into the HVAC business by hiring an HVAC tech
>>>> and doesn't know much himself.
>>>> I had two quotes for original installation which entailed brazing
>>>> connecting refrigerant tubing, adding appropriate amount of
>>>> refrigerant and checking system operation. Electrical and mechanical
>>>> installation was already done. Unit was running on aux heat and
>>>> airflow checked using measured line voltage and current of strip
>>>> heater in conjunction with temp probes. (756 CFM at medium fan speed
>>>> for 2 Ton unit)
>>>> The two quotes were $500 and $350. I took the higher because I wanted
>>>> a good job done. Go figure....
>>>> I have expanded heating data charts (ambient from 65 to -10) for
>>>> installed split-system to make life easier for tech. BTW, all this
>>>> information (including fact that filter was already installed) was
>>>> available for original tech but he just thumbed through it and
>>>> proceeded to do his job. I trusted him. Now I wonder if he
>>>> contaminated the system during install.
>>>> Will post results from new HVAC tech when he finishes.
>>>
>>> Goodman equipment is a half step above Intertherm mobile home junk. Consumer
>>> Reports doesn't even rate Goodman because there are so many problems because
>>> of internet sales and lowest bidder installs. Did the tech even pull a
>>> vacuum on the system before charging? Did he even own a micron gage, let
>>> alone how to use it?? or... did he just let the vacuum pump run for 15 or 20
>>> minutes and call it good?? BTW... 30 min defrost cycles waste energy. Demand
>>> defrost is preferable.
>>Mow that is amusing. Consumers Report qualifies Goodman equipment by the
>>many names the same unit is manufactured under and each one is scored
>>differently. The same goes for other companies that manufacture the
>>same units under different names. Actually Goodman seems to be as good
>>as the best in longevity. I don't deal in them, but I do repair a lot of
>>very old units. I can name several that don't seem to last that long.
>>Carrier seems to have a shorter lifespan as an example..As does Lennox.
>>Some of the oldest stuff out there is Mueller and Janitrol. Don't forget
>>New Holland and Chicago foundries. You do know of course who makes Sears
>>stuff?
>>>
>In my search for info on this problem, I came across Amana data sheets
>- the actual instructions, diagrams and parts list are identical
>copies of the Goodman ones. They just changed the cover sheets.
You're becoming a real Einstein there Jean. You think it might have
something to do with the fact that Goodman purchased Amana a while
back?
Me though, if I were looking for Goodman, Id just go to Goodman's
site.
Bubba
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Posted by on February 16, 2009, 9:51 pm
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Posted by Jean on February 16, 2009, 10:26 pm
wrote:
SNIP
>>In my search for info on this problem, I came across Amana data sheets
>>- the actual instructions, diagrams and parts list are identical
>>copies of the Goodman ones. They just changed the cover sheets.
>You're becoming a real Einstein there Jean. You think it might have
>something to do with the fact that Goodman purchased Amana a while
>back?
>Me though, if I were looking for Goodman, Id just go to Goodman's
>site.
>Bubba
Google "heat pump noise defrost cycle" or "heat pump scroll slugging"
or whatever. Go 10-20-30 pages deep. I've found sites from ALL
suppliers with various problems to do with this noise.
I've already got everything that Goodman produced covering the
installed equipment. I just found this detail interesting but not
particularly helpful. I could care less who bought who.
BTW, heat pump tech could not check unit until tomorrow because he was
running behind. He did stop by for a quick listen because he was
passing by. He says unit is slugging during defrost and a bit on
startup.
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Posted by Don Ocean on February 16, 2009, 10:23 pm
Jean wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> Steve wrote:
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gfnmVB5q3c&NR=1
>>>>> I have a Goodman GSZ (installed Nov) that has started making the same
>>>>> noise during defrost. There is also a neighbor with a Frigidaire that
>>>>> makes a similar noise during defrost. He had an HVAC tech come and
>>>>> tell him that is the way these things work. That was a quick 100
>>>>> bucks.
>>>>> I am waiting for a HVAC tech to come but if he also tells me this is
>>>>> "normal" the world will have one less HVAC tech ;)
>>>>> I paid $540 for commisioning the unit - 3 hours labour. The $40 was
>>>>> for a filter/drier. After checking I've found that there was a drier
>>>>> already installed so this was a waste. BTW, records show 6.6 ounces of
>>>>> R410 was added for tubing but none for extra filter.
>>>>> The unit ran fairly quiet for about two months until the temp went
>>>>> down to 20F. Should there be a crankcase heater?
>>>>> Frosting rarely completely covers coils - not much icing on bottom
>>>>> sections. Defrost setting at 30 minutes.
>>>>> How well do the sound blankets on the compressor work?
>>>>> Looking forward to the replies - good, bad, funny AND ugly......
>>>> As there were no replies to this, I'll try to answer it myself.
>>>> (still awaiting the (new) HVAC tech to come and perform his magic.)
>>>> In the meantime, I installed a crankcase heater and sound blanket and
>>>> found that the accumulator was rattling on startup due to missing nut
>>>> on mounting bolt. This caused the sounds to be exacerbated.
>>>> I think the problem is scroll compressor slugging on foam created by
>>>> insufficient refrigerant or migration.
>>>> Original charge was to be by weight.
>>>> Factory charge: 35.14 oz
>>>> Extra line charge: 6 oz
>>>> Missing charge for unneeded filter: approx 6 oz
>>>> I checked refrigerant charge using the hot gas method (I'm a retired
>>>> industrial instrumentation tech so this was no big deal) and found a
>>>> temperature rise of 119 on the hot gas line.
>>>> I also ran the unit on a cold, humid day for an extended period and
>>>> found VERY distinct frost banding on bottoms of coil sections. This
>>>> unit is at my mother's house so I did not find out about problems till
>>>> recently so I cannot say when it started. The low refrigerant may also
>>>> be caused by leak in system. If so, I'll be pretty pissed off if it's
>>>> in one of the installer's connections!
>>>> I called the owner of the original heating/HVAC company and he tried
>>>> to bullshit me. I should have recorded his dumb comments as he tried
>>>> to explain the above and say it's "normal". He would not allow me to
>>>> speak directly to the tech. He wants another $500 to remove the filter
>>>> and adjust refrigerant. From his comments, I figure he is an old
>>>> heating dude that got into the HVAC business by hiring an HVAC tech
>>>> and doesn't know much himself.
>>>> I had two quotes for original installation which entailed brazing
>>>> connecting refrigerant tubing, adding appropriate amount of
>>>> refrigerant and checking system operation. Electrical and mechanical
>>>> installation was already done. Unit was running on aux heat and
>>>> airflow checked using measured line voltage and current of strip
>>>> heater in conjunction with temp probes. (756 CFM at medium fan speed
>>>> for 2 Ton unit)
>>>> The two quotes were $500 and $350. I took the higher because I wanted
>>>> a good job done. Go figure....
>>>> I have expanded heating data charts (ambient from 65 to -10) for
>>>> installed split-system to make life easier for tech. BTW, all this
>>>> information (including fact that filter was already installed) was
>>>> available for original tech but he just thumbed through it and
>>>> proceeded to do his job. I trusted him. Now I wonder if he
>>>> contaminated the system during install.
>>>> Will post results from new HVAC tech when he finishes.
>>> Goodman equipment is a half step above Intertherm mobile home junk. Consumer
>>> Reports doesn't even rate Goodman because there are so many problems because
>>> of internet sales and lowest bidder installs. Did the tech even pull a
>>> vacuum on the system before charging? Did he even own a micron gage, let
>>> alone how to use it?? or... did he just let the vacuum pump run for 15 or 20
>>> minutes and call it good?? BTW... 30 min defrost cycles waste energy. Demand
>>> defrost is preferable.
>> Mow that is amusing. Consumers Report qualifies Goodman equipment by the
>> many names the same unit is manufactured under and each one is scored
>> differently. The same goes for other companies that manufacture the
>> same units under different names. Actually Goodman seems to be as good
>> as the best in longevity. I don't deal in them, but I do repair a lot of
>> very old units. I can name several that don't seem to last that long.
>> Carrier seems to have a shorter lifespan as an example..As does Lennox.
>> Some of the oldest stuff out there is Mueller and Janitrol. Don't forget
>> New Holland and Chicago foundries. You do know of course who makes Sears
>> stuff?
>
> In my search for info on this problem, I came across Amana data sheets
> - the actual instructions, diagrams and parts list are identical
> copies of the Goodman ones. They just changed the cover sheets.
Gee? I wonder why? ;-p
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