Which Carrier gas furnace: Performance 80 or 93 ?

Posted by on April 25, 2008, 10:01 pm

I have to choose between the Carrier Performance 80 and the Carrier
Performance 93. My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat
and hot water. So there's not much to save. Since the Performance
93 costs an additional $800 for the furnace alone -- chimney and
condensate pump extra -- I'm leaning towards the Performance 80.
Any comments worth more than a penny?
Thanks, Herb

Posted by Andy Energy on April 27, 2008, 11:26 am

wrote:

> 13% more efficient will pay for itself over time... Make sure it's at leas=

> a 2 stage.
> A Heat pump can save you thousands over time, depending on your design
> conditions,utility rates, etc...
> and might be the place to spend your dough...
> Some Ludites will disagree,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 geothermalones

> > I have to choose between the Carrier Performance 80 and the Carrier
> > Performance 93. =A0My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat
> > and hot water. =A0So there's not much to save. =A0Since the Performance
> > 93 costs an additional $800 for the furnace alone -- chimney and
> > condensate pump extra -- I'm leaning towards the Performance 80.
> > Any comments worth more than a penny?
> > Thanks, Herb- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

Depending on the climate on is in will depend on the success of a heat
pump. Is it a ground source or air source?

If air source and you live in a cold climate the electric strip
heaters will come on and reduce the system efficiency over the heating
season.

If it is ground source, the expense will be high to install and over
its life time one will seldom recoup their investment. For the
difference in cost between and ground source heat pump and the forced
air high efficiency furnace. If one took the saving of the two units
and put it into Whole House Performance the saving would be more than
a ground source heat pump could save. And most of the WHP fixes are
for the life of the structure, I doubt a heat pump can do this.

Regardless of the heat pump if the house is not efficient the customer
may not be happy. I worked in the Dayton Ohio area to 1.5 years doing
energy analysis and more people with heat pump (air source) were not
happy with them. The ducts were in the slab around the perimeter of
the house and the air temp 80 deg F blowing out on a cold day was
uncomfortable.

So, make your house efficient then choose the heating source and one
will be happy.

Andy
Think "Whole House Performance" it is the right thing to do....

Posted by KJPRO on April 27, 2008, 11:42 am

> wrote:

> > 13% more efficient will pay for itself over time... Make sure it's at
> > least
> > a 2 stage.
> > A Heat pump can save you thousands over time, depending on your design
> > conditions,utility rates, etc...
> > and might be the place to spend your dough...
> > Some Ludites will disagree,
> > geothermalones

> > > I have to choose between the Carrier Performance 80 and the Carrier
> > > Performance 93. My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat

> > and hot water. So there's not much to save. Since the Performance

> > > 93 costs an additional $800 for the furnace alone -- chimney and
> > > condensate pump extra -- I'm leaning towards the Performance 80.
> > > Any comments worth more than a penny?
> > > Thanks, Herb- Hide quoted text -

> > - Show quoted text -

> Depending on the climate on is in will depend on the success of a heat
> pump. Is it a ground source or air source?

I see you missed this part of the OP's post:

Quote:
My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat
and hot water.

> If air source and you live in a cold climate the electric strip
> heaters will come on and reduce the system efficiency over the heating
> season.

Will depend on ones utility costs... in a lot of area's, the combination of
HP/Electric will still be cheaper to operate then a gas fired furnace.

> If it is ground source, the expense will be high to install and over
> its life time one will seldom recoup their investment.

Once again, it will depend on MANY variables, so your above comment isn't
really warranted. It only discourages people from using less energy.

> For the
> difference in cost between and ground source heat pump and the forced
> air high efficiency furnace. If one took the saving of the two units
> and put it into Whole House Performance the saving would be more than
> a ground source heat pump could save. And most of the WHP fixes are
> for the life of the structure, I doubt a heat pump can do this.
> Regardless of the heat pump if the house is not efficient the customer
> may not be happy. I worked in the Dayton Ohio area to 1.5 years doing
> energy analysis and more people with heat pump (air source) were not
> happy with them. The ducts were in the slab around the perimeter of
> the house and the air temp 80 deg F blowing out on a cold day was
> uncomfortable.

I see many systems where the people are not happy with them... first you
need to look at the installation. Don't blame the equipment, till you can
understand WHY they are dissatified with their current equipment. No matter
whether it's a Heat Pump, Gas Fired Furnace, Boiler, etc...

> So, make your house efficient then choose the heating source and one
> will be happy.
> Andy
> Think "Whole House Performance" it is the right thing to do....

Posted by big_dgreen on April 27, 2008, 5:47 pm

big_dgreen had written this in response to
http://www.www.thestuccocompany.com/hvac/Re-Which-Carrier-gas-furnace-Performance-80-or-93-31809-.htm
:
I agree that it varies from installation to installation, electric hp done
properly most people seem happy. Ones that think they aren't happy have
normally had gas heat in the past and need to realize that a hp is a
gradual source of heat, not a turn it on and get 180 degree air heat.
Which I'd rather have a gradual cheap heat. Because once it's down to temp
it's down to temp no reason to complain.

On a geothermal, in my neck of the woods there are 2 types. Ones that the
installer didn't size the ground loop properly on, and the ones that the
installer filled the hole in with the same red clay that he took out of
it. Point is if you live in my part of the country, southern mountain
lands oklahoma. Clay doesn't have the same heat transfer capacity that
loose dirt and soil does. Resulting in an expensive pos. I have seen the
properly installed units, which around here consist of burying a seperate
septic tank filled with fresh water and a ground loop and a float valve.
That's a very very very efficient system. Very costly to the 'poor' folk
like me.

Maybe you should look at a Dual Fuel Heat Pump, very efficient, and very
effective! (i personally believe it's a waste of a heatpump but then again
I won't use gas heat)

-------------------------------------
KJPRO wrote:

>> message
>> On Apr 26, 2:13 pm, "geothermaljones"
>> wrote:

>> > 13% more efficient will pay for itself over time... Make sure
>>> it's at
>> > least
>> > a 2 stage.
>> > A Heat pump can save you thousands over time, depending on
>>> your design
>> > conditions,utility rates, etc...
>> > and might be the place to spend your dough...
>> > Some Ludites will disagree,
>> > geothermalones
>> > > I have to choose between the Carrier Performance 80 and
>>>> the Carrier
>> > > Performance 93. My average yearly gas bill comes to $410
>>>> for heat
>> > and hot water. So there's not much to save. Since the
>>> Performance
>> > > 93 costs an additional $800 for the furnace alone --
>>>> chimney and
>> > > condensate pump extra -- I'm leaning towards the
>>>> Performance 80.
>> > > Any comments worth more than a penny?
>> > > Thanks, Herb- Hide quoted text -
>> > - Show quoted text -

>> Depending on the climate on is in will depend on the success of a
>> heat
>> pump. Is it a ground source or air source?

> I see you missed this part of the OP's post:

> Quote:
> My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat
> and hot water.

>> If air source and you live in a cold climate the electric strip
>> heaters will come on and reduce the system efficiency over the
>> heating
>> season.

> Will depend on ones utility costs... in a lot of area's, the
> combination of
> HP/Electric will still be cheaper to operate then a gas fired furnace.

>> If it is ground source, the expense will be high to install and
>> over
>> its life time one will seldom recoup their investment.

> Once again, it will depend on MANY variables, so your above comment
> isn't
> really warranted. It only discourages people from using less energy.

>> For the
>> difference in cost between and ground source heat pump and the
>> forced
>> air high efficiency furnace. If one took the saving of the two
>> units
>> and put it into Whole House Performance the saving would be more
>> than
>> a ground source heat pump could save. And most of the WHP fixes
>> are
>> for the life of the structure, I doubt a heat pump can do this.
>> Regardless of the heat pump if the house is not efficient the
>> customer
>> may not be happy. I worked in the Dayton Ohio area to 1.5 years
>> doing
>> energy analysis and more people with heat pump (air source) were
>> not
>> happy with them. The ducts were in the slab around the perimeter
>> of
>> the house and the air temp 80 deg F blowing out on a cold day was
>> uncomfortable.

> I see many systems where the people are not happy with them... first
> you
> need to look at the installation. Don't blame the equipment, till you
> can
> understand WHY they are dissatified with their current equipment. No
> matter
> whether it's a Heat Pump, Gas Fired Furnace, Boiler, etc...

>> So, make your house efficient then choose the heating source and
>> one
>> will be happy.
>> Andy
>> Think "Whole House Performance" it is the right thing to
>> do....

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Posted by geothermaljones on April 30, 2008, 7:29 pm

Andy
You've proven yourself a ludite...

In my neck of the woods, 9500 Heating Degree Days (Mpls, MN)
A heat pump is still more efficient than a 93% gas furnace... Above 15dF
(That's when you lock it out & let the gas heat the home)
Depending on electric rates ($.03-.08), a electric plenum heater can
supplement the HP down to 5-10dF & still save over $1.20Therm NG
Look at your area BIN date & see how many hour are below the balance point
of your HP
Of the 8760 hours in a year, we heat roughly 1/2 of those. 4380 hrs.
Throw away a few hundred from 60-65 (HDD) & we'll call it 4000 hrs, 3500 if
you like.
Now look at the BIN data from -30 to -25, -25 to -20, etc... up to 15-20 dF
Add those up & you'll have less than 1000 hrs,
that leaves 2500 hrs when your air source HP can handle every BTU of your
heat loss
& do it at a HSPF of 6.0-8.5 (depending on Mfgr)
HSPF = COP averaged across the heating season...
I'll give you the right to argue the heating season includes the hours we're
using supplemental heat,
but you have to admit, that even removing those hours leaves a substantial
COP (well over 2.5) & a huge savings over your 95% gas furnace.

I've got a 93% variable speed furnace & replaced a 12 SEER A/C w/a 16 SEER 2
stage air source HP.
The savings has been over $400.00 in the last year.

If I had the land for a 4 Ton geothermal loop field ($8000.00 - $10,000) I'm
sure I could run the place for less that $50.00 a month, yr. round.
Not too many years for payback in my book, but I tend to buy a house & stay
in is for awhile.

goodluck
geothermaljones
st.paul,mn.

wrote:

> 13% more efficient will pay for itself over time... Make sure it's at

least

> > I have to choose between the Carrier Performance 80 and the Carrier
> > Performance 93. My average yearly gas bill comes to $410 for heat
> > and hot water. So there's not much to save. Since the Performance
> > 93 costs an additional $800 for the furnace alone -- chimney and
> > condensate pump extra -- I'm leaning towards the Performance 80.
> > Any comments worth more than a penny?
> > Thanks, Herb- Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

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