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Why can't heat pumps use air

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Why can't heat pumps use air numtyhead 06-05-2007
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Posted by numtyhead on June 5, 2007, 3:49 pm
I'm thinking about using an air compressor to take warm air and
compress it to raise the temperature in order to heat up a water tank.
Once some of the heat has been removed I would intend expanding the
air before reheating in the same way as you would in a heat pump.

I have a couple of questions which I would appreciate some views on:-

1). Do systems exist as described above. If yes where can I get more
information, if not why not?

2). I calculate the energy required to compress the air is the same as
what would be required using conventional heating. If I expand the air
in a piston / cylinder I should be able to recover some energy.
However if I expand using a nozzle I cannot see where I can recover
some of the energy used to compress the air. Can anybody explain
what's going on here?

3). I'm unclear regarding the merits of either compressing the warm
air removing the heat and then releasing to atmosphere compared with
completing the cycle.

I studied thermodynamics some years ago but need to get some
understanding of the basics involved here.

Any thoughts / help welcome.

Thanks
Numtyhead


Posted by ard[H20] on June 5, 2007, 4:54 pm

>I'm thinking about using an air compressor to take warm air and
>compress it to raise the temperature in order to heat up a water tank.
>Once some of the heat has been removed I would intend expanding the
>air before reheating in the same way as you would in a heat pump.
>
>I have a couple of questions which I would appreciate some views on:-
>
>1). Do systems exist as described above. If yes where can I get more
>information, if not why not?
>
>2). I calculate the energy required to compress the air is the same as
>what would be required using conventional heating. If I expand the air
>in a piston / cylinder I should be able to recover some energy.
>However if I expand using a nozzle I cannot see where I can recover
>some of the energy used to compress the air. Can anybody explain
>what's going on here?
>
>3). I'm unclear regarding the merits of either compressing the warm
>air removing the heat and then releasing to atmosphere compared with
>completing the cycle.
>
>I studied thermodynamics some years ago but need to get some
>understanding of the basics involved here.
>
>Any thoughts / help welcome.
>
>Thanks
>Numtyhead

Such design was used in the late 1800's aboard Sailing Steam Ships
(SSS Minnow /eg). The compressed air was used to refrigerate cargo.
Inefficient then, I doubt any advantage is to be gained today over a
similar concept using conventional heat pump application.
Be aware the engineering part of the water heating has to be precise.

                ICE

Posted by hvacrmedic on June 6, 2007, 6:02 pm
> >I'm thinking about using an air compressor to take warm air and
> >compress it to raise the temperature in order to heat up a water tank.
> >Once some of the heat has been removed I would intend expanding the
> >air before reheating in the same way as you would in a heat pump.
>
> >I have a couple of questions which I would appreciate some views on:-
>
> >1). Do systems exist as described above. If yes where can I get more
> >information, if not why not?
>
> >2). I calculate the energy required to compress the air is the same as
> >what would be required using conventional heating. If I expand the air
> >in a piston / cylinder I should be able to recover some energy.
> >However if I expand using a nozzle I cannot see where I can recover
> >some of the energy used to compress the air. Can anybody explain
> >what's going on here?
>
> >3). I'm unclear regarding the merits of either compressing the warm
> >air removing the heat and then releasing to atmosphere compared with
> >completing the cycle.
>
> >I studied thermodynamics some years ago but need to get some
> >understanding of the basics involved here.
>
> >Any thoughts / help welcome.
>
> >Thanks
> >Numtyhead
>
> Such design was used in the late 1800's aboard Sailing Steam Ships
> (SSS Minnow /eg). The compressed air was used to refrigerate cargo.
> Inefficient then, I doubt any advantage is to be gained today over a
> similar concept using conventional heat pump application.
> Be aware the engineering part of the water heating has to be precise.

Is that supposed to mean something? Maybe you could expand a bit on
that statement. I'm not sure that the expression "the water heating
has to be precise" even means anything in English.


>
> ICE- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



Posted by on June 5, 2007, 4:59 pm
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:49:35 -0700, numtyhead

>I'm thinking about using an air compressor to take warm air and
>compress it to raise the temperature in order to heat up a water tank.
>Once some of the heat has been removed I would intend expanding the
>air before reheating in the same way as you would in a heat pump.
>
>I have a couple of questions which I would appreciate some views on:-
>
>1). Do systems exist as described above. If yes where can I get more
>information, if not why not?
>
>2). I calculate the energy required to compress the air is the same as
>what would be required using conventional heating. If I expand the air
>in a piston / cylinder I should be able to recover some energy.
>However if I expand using a nozzle I cannot see where I can recover
>some of the energy used to compress the air. Can anybody explain
>what's going on here?
>
>3). I'm unclear regarding the merits of either compressing the warm
>air removing the heat and then releasing to atmosphere compared with
>completing the cycle.
>
>I studied thermodynamics some years ago but need to get some
>understanding of the basics involved here.
>
>Any thoughts / help welcome.
>
>Thanks
>Numtyhead

        It can be done, but not with any accepable energy efficiency.
There are several concepts, including one which uses venturi effect to
create a cold air stream from hot air - I forget the name of the thing
- I think it is or was used on jet fighters etc .

        The real power of a refrigeration system comes from the phase
change of the refrigerant, and with air you don't get any.


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Posted by PrecisioNmachinisT on June 5, 2007, 8:07 pm

>
> It can be done, but not with any accepable energy efficiency.
> There are several concepts, including one which uses venturi effect to
> create a cold air stream from hot air - I forget the name of the thing
>

Hilsch vortex tube.

--







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