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problems with heating system for steam/hyronic system mikeasmel 10-13-2006
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Posted by Power's Mechanical on October 17, 2006, 5:51 pm

Bubba wrote:
> On 16 Oct 2006 15:25:59 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
>
> >
> >Steve Scott wrote:
> >> It's a steam system. The only times it isn't supposed to have air in
> >> it is when it's heating. Dido may have a point the system isn't
> >> venting properly, but I suspect from his reply he thought it was a
> >> water system as the steam isn't move by a pump.
> >>
> >> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:48:11 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Dido is certainly correct in suggesting there is air in the
> >> >> system
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Whoopee for Dildo! "There might be air in the system!"
> >> >Elementary. Not exactly a stunning revelation on the part of a so-called
> >> >tech!
> >> >The question to be answered is how was the air was introduced into the
> >> >system in the first place, and what measures need to taken to rectify the
> >> >problem and prevent it from happening again.
> >> >Once again, Dildo jumps up and tries to sound like he knows something about
> >> >hvac, but offers little in the way of true expertise or legitimate problem
> >> >solving solutions.
> >> >
> >> >If Dildo was on a plane that was falling out of the sky, he would
> >> >undoubtably rush to the cockpit and announce something brilliant like
> >> >" I think theres a problem with the engine. You should get it checked!"
> >>
> >>
> >
> >The way I read it was he has both HW and steam. He must have a steam
> >to HW converter which he calls a HX. He didnt say which part or, if
> >all of the house is not heating. If its the whole house it could be
> >something as simple as a low steam pressure setting.
> >
> >If its the HW part then it may the reset ratio on the converter control
> >is incorrect or the valve is bad or the control is bad or it has air.
> >Maybe the tube bundle is leaking inside the converter. Could be a lot
> >of things that only an on site inspection will revel.
> >
> >He says sludge in the old steam lines caused the circ pump to fail.
> >What pump? Certainly not a circ pump on the steam line. Sludge (and
> >I doubt its sludge) in the steam lnes will not intermingle with the HW
> >lines. Hot water line yes but they are two seperate piping systems. I
> >mean really now. How many times has anyone seen sludge in a steam pipe
> >or trap anyhow. I cant think of a one and Ive seen plenty of old steam
> >demo.
> >
> Seriously? You havenet seen sludge in steam lines? Ive seen a ton of
> it. Ive found it in boiler sections, return lines (plugged enough that
> they rotted through), McDonald Miller low water cut offs, steam traps,
> etc. Biggest reason is poor piping and poor maintenance. I wouldnt
> know what to do if I didnt find sludge/mud in steam lines.
> "Man'z gotta work, ya know?"
> Bubba
>
Maybe water treatment has something to do with it. Something most if
any residential boilers never get. You know, I open a lot of lwco's on
both steam and hw boilers during CSD-1 inspections and I can recall
maybe one in the last several years that had any build up in it but
like I say that must be due to proper water treatment. Ive got
buildings with 50 - 100 year old pipes in them and they arent all
gooped up inside. Usually with steam the problem is pipes wearing out
being cut by the steam.


Radiant Heat 468x60
Posted by -zero on October 17, 2006, 11:26 pm

>
> Bubba wrote:
>> On 16 Oct 2006 15:25:59 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
>> >
>> Seriously? You havenet seen sludge in steam lines? Ive seen a ton of
>> it. Ive found it in boiler sections, return lines (plugged enough that
>> they rotted through), McDonald Miller low water cut offs, steam traps,
>> etc. Biggest reason is poor piping and poor maintenance. I wouldnt
>> know what to do if I didnt find sludge/mud in steam lines.
>> "Man'z gotta work, ya know?"
>> Bubba

> Maybe water treatment has something to do with it.

Yep, that's it. Tha and proper blowdown procedures.

>Something most if
> any residential boilers never get. You know, I open a lot of lwco's on
> both steam and hw boilers during CSD-1 inspections and I can recall
> maybe one in the last several years that had any build up in it but
> like I say that must be due to proper water treatment. Ive got
> buildings with 50 - 100 year old pipes in them and they arent all
> gooped up inside. Usually with steam the problem is pipes wearing out
> being cut by the steam.

Many of the local chemical concoctions here are very effective and lack
of blowdown is not a good option. Most are in fine shape, though.
However, over the years I've pulled a few 150's/194's with a pile of
scale/mud reveling a perfectly molded depression of the float in the bottom
of the bowl, only allowing the ball to drop a 1/4 inch. ( and maybe half the
ones that have melted down the bowls were scaled all the way up)
Always follows the story of the new maintenance people or maintenance
manager(didn't know they had to do "blowdown"), or front office suits took
away some benefits and everybody no longer gives a shit... etc.

BTW, on page 22 http://www.mcdonnellmiller.com/prod/TechnicalInfo.pdf
McDonnell Miller finally (and quietly) changed their recommended replacement
for most of the (high pressure use) heads to 5 years.
The 194 really goes to shit after a few years and tends to stick. Not
good!

-zero





Posted by Power's Mechanical on October 18, 2006, 7:04 pm

-zero wrote:
> >
> > Bubba wrote:
> >> On 16 Oct 2006 15:25:59 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
> >> >
> >> Seriously? You havenet seen sludge in steam lines? Ive seen a ton of
> >> it. Ive found it in boiler sections, return lines (plugged enough that
> >> they rotted through), McDonald Miller low water cut offs, steam traps,
> >> etc. Biggest reason is poor piping and poor maintenance. I wouldnt
> >> know what to do if I didnt find sludge/mud in steam lines.
> >> "Man'z gotta work, ya know?"
> >> Bubba
>
> > Maybe water treatment has something to do with it.
>
> Yep, that's it. Tha and proper blowdown procedures.
>
> >Something most if
> > any residential boilers never get. You know, I open a lot of lwco's on
> > both steam and hw boilers during CSD-1 inspections and I can recall
> > maybe one in the last several years that had any build up in it but
> > like I say that must be due to proper water treatment. Ive got
> > buildings with 50 - 100 year old pipes in them and they arent all
> > gooped up inside. Usually with steam the problem is pipes wearing out
> > being cut by the steam.
>
> Many of the local chemical concoctions here are very effective and lack
> of blowdown is not a good option. Most are in fine shape, though.
> However, over the years I've pulled a few 150's/194's with a pile of
> scale/mud reveling a perfectly molded depression of the float in the bottom
> of the bowl, only allowing the ball to drop a 1/4 inch. ( and maybe half the
> ones that have melted down the bowls were scaled all the way up)
> Always follows the story of the new maintenance people or maintenance
> manager(didn't know they had to do "blowdown"), or front office suits took
> away some benefits and everybody no longer gives a shit... etc.
>
> BTW, on page 22 http://www.mcdonnellmiller.com/prod/TechnicalInfo.pdf
> McDonnell Miller finally (and quietly) changed their recommended replacement
> for most of the (high pressure use) heads to 5 years.
> The 194 really goes to shit after a few years and tends to stick. Not
> good!
>
> -zero

In my area they require that the LWCO be disassembled, inspected and
cleaned once during the inspection period (3 yrs) on every boiler over
500K btu. CSD-1 tests are required anually. Monthly logs are to be
kept and up to date and if they arent the inspector will make things
tough on the owners. They are very strick about it as they should be.
But yea if left unattended LWCO's will accumalate sludge especially
without water treatment.

Tip: I dont know if you have heard of this and you probably have but,
when you reassemble the LWCO put some never seize on the float chamber
gasket. It comes off the next time easily in one piece off and can be
re used if needed. Beats the hell out of wire wheeling them off with
a 5 inch grinder. Its a good idea to check the PRV screen at least
once a year also.


Posted by Bubba on October 18, 2006, 9:46 pm
On 17 Oct 2006 14:51:49 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"

>
>Bubba wrote:
>> On 16 Oct 2006 15:25:59 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
>>
>> >
>> >Steve Scott wrote:
>> >> It's a steam system. The only times it isn't supposed to have air in
>> >> it is when it's heating. Dido may have a point the system isn't
>> >> venting properly, but I suspect from his reply he thought it was a
>> >> water system as the steam isn't move by a pump.
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:48:11 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Dido is certainly correct in suggesting there is air in the
>> >> >> system
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Whoopee for Dildo! "There might be air in the system!"
>> >> >Elementary. Not exactly a stunning revelation on the part of a so-called
>> >> >tech!
>> >> >The question to be answered is how was the air was introduced into the
>> >> >system in the first place, and what measures need to taken to rectify the
>> >> >problem and prevent it from happening again.
>> >> >Once again, Dildo jumps up and tries to sound like he knows something
about
>> >> >hvac, but offers little in the way of true expertise or legitimate problem
>> >> >solving solutions.
>> >> >
>> >> >If Dildo was on a plane that was falling out of the sky, he would
>> >> >undoubtably rush to the cockpit and announce something brilliant like
>> >> >" I think theres a problem with the engine. You should get it checked!"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >The way I read it was he has both HW and steam. He must have a steam
>> >to HW converter which he calls a HX. He didnt say which part or, if
>> >all of the house is not heating. If its the whole house it could be
>> >something as simple as a low steam pressure setting.
>> >
>> >If its the HW part then it may the reset ratio on the converter control
>> >is incorrect or the valve is bad or the control is bad or it has air.
>> >Maybe the tube bundle is leaking inside the converter. Could be a lot
>> >of things that only an on site inspection will revel.
>> >
>> >He says sludge in the old steam lines caused the circ pump to fail.
>> >What pump? Certainly not a circ pump on the steam line. Sludge (and
>> >I doubt its sludge) in the steam lnes will not intermingle with the HW
>> >lines. Hot water line yes but they are two seperate piping systems. I
>> >mean really now. How many times has anyone seen sludge in a steam pipe
>> >or trap anyhow. I cant think of a one and Ive seen plenty of old steam
>> >demo.
>> >
>> Seriously? You havenet seen sludge in steam lines? Ive seen a ton of
>> it. Ive found it in boiler sections, return lines (plugged enough that
>> they rotted through), McDonald Miller low water cut offs, steam traps,
>> etc. Biggest reason is poor piping and poor maintenance. I wouldnt
>> know what to do if I didnt find sludge/mud in steam lines.
>> "Man'z gotta work, ya know?"
>> Bubba
>>
>Maybe water treatment has something to do with it. Something most if
>any residential boilers never get. You know, I open a lot of lwco's on
>both steam and hw boilers during CSD-1 inspections and I can recall
>maybe one in the last several years that had any build up in it but
>like I say that must be due to proper water treatment. Ive got
>buildings with 50 - 100 year old pipes in them and they arent all
>gooped up inside. Usually with steam the problem is pipes wearing out
>being cut by the steam.

Yes. Im talking of the resi's that get absolutely no water treatment
nor blow downs. A lot of the commercial stuff I see is the same way.
Tried recommending a water treatment system to a bank that needed it
badly. They about chit when they saw the price. Oh well. I can replace
all the boilers and piping they want. :-)
Bubba

Posted by Power's Mechanical on October 19, 2006, 6:25 pm

Bubba wrote:
> On 17 Oct 2006 14:51:49 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
>
> >
> >Bubba wrote:
> >> On 16 Oct 2006 15:25:59 -0700, "Power's Mechanical"
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Steve Scott wrote:
> >> >> It's a steam system. The only times it isn't supposed to have air in
> >> >> it is when it's heating. Dido may have a point the system isn't
> >> >> venting properly, but I suspect from his reply he thought it was a
> >> >> water system as the steam isn't move by a pump.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:48:11 GMT, "Bob_Loblaw"
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Dido is certainly correct in suggesting there is air in the
> >> >> >> system
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Whoopee for Dildo! "There might be air in the system!"
> >> >> >Elementary. Not exactly a stunning revelation on the part of a so-called
> >> >> >tech!
> >> >> >The question to be answered is how was the air was introduced into the
> >> >> >system in the first place, and what measures need to taken to rectify
the
> >> >> >problem and prevent it from happening again.
> >> >> >Once again, Dildo jumps up and tries to sound like he knows something
about
> >> >> >hvac, but offers little in the way of true expertise or legitimate
problem
> >> >> >solving solutions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If Dildo was on a plane that was falling out of the sky, he would
> >> >> >undoubtably rush to the cockpit and announce something brilliant like
> >> >> >" I think theres a problem with the engine. You should get it checked!"
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >The way I read it was he has both HW and steam. He must have a steam
> >> >to HW converter which he calls a HX. He didnt say which part or, if
> >> >all of the house is not heating. If its the whole house it could be
> >> >something as simple as a low steam pressure setting.
> >> >
> >> >If its the HW part then it may the reset ratio on the converter control
> >> >is incorrect or the valve is bad or the control is bad or it has air.
> >> >Maybe the tube bundle is leaking inside the converter. Could be a lot
> >> >of things that only an on site inspection will revel.
> >> >
> >> >He says sludge in the old steam lines caused the circ pump to fail.
> >> >What pump? Certainly not a circ pump on the steam line. Sludge (and
> >> >I doubt its sludge) in the steam lnes will not intermingle with the HW
> >> >lines. Hot water line yes but they are two seperate piping systems. I
> >> >mean really now. How many times has anyone seen sludge in a steam pipe
> >> >or trap anyhow. I cant think of a one and Ive seen plenty of old steam
> >> >demo.
> >> >
> >> Seriously? You havenet seen sludge in steam lines? Ive seen a ton of
> >> it. Ive found it in boiler sections, return lines (plugged enough that
> >> they rotted through), McDonald Miller low water cut offs, steam traps,
> >> etc. Biggest reason is poor piping and poor maintenance. I wouldnt
> >> know what to do if I didnt find sludge/mud in steam lines.
> >> "Man'z gotta work, ya know?"
> >> Bubba
> >>
> >Maybe water treatment has something to do with it. Something most if
> >any residential boilers never get. You know, I open a lot of lwco's on
> >both steam and hw boilers during CSD-1 inspections and I can recall
> >maybe one in the last several years that had any build up in it but
> >like I say that must be due to proper water treatment. Ive got
> >buildings with 50 - 100 year old pipes in them and they arent all
> >gooped up inside. Usually with steam the problem is pipes wearing out
> >being cut by the steam.
>
> Yes. Im talking of the resi's that get absolutely no water treatment
> nor blow downs. A lot of the commercial stuff I see is the same way.
> Tried recommending a water treatment system to a bank that needed it
> badly. They about chit when they saw the price. Oh well. I can replace
> all the boilers and piping they want. :-)
> Bubba

Amen to that brother. Its their money and personally I have no problem
spending it. Most of all our big customers are on service contacts so
they do get tended on a regular basis and every three years we open up
the water side for inspection and the fire side gets opened every year.
We usually (not always) spot little problems and take care of them
before they become a big problem. We dont offer water treatment
though. We cant compete with the companies already out there doing it.

Im into the second week of a piping job at the moment. 5000 ft of inch
and up to lay out and 600 hours to do it in. So far Im 16 hours ahead
of schedual but I feel it. Instead of my shoulder being sore, it just
pops now. lol


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