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Posted by danny burstein on January 22, 2009, 12:56 pm
Help me, O'bewon, you're my only hope.
I'm just a reasonably competent bystander, hence my
call out to the experts.
The situation I'm facing is that my apartment complex has
an enclosed, large (100 or so) car garage with a "lift door"
at one end. (It's also got an upper level with a separate
roadway entrance, and that one uses a remote controlled door).
The garage is heated to a nominal 60 or so degrees, using
low pressure steam from the main powerhouse that's fed
into a half dozen or so blowers. We're in NYC so this
means heating is needed a decent portion of the year.
My question, and I'm hoping you'll treat me gently, is
that the garage door is generally left open full time.
(There's a staffed attendant room just inside, which has its
own walls, heating, and a door into the main garage).
There's got to be a huge heat loss issue here, but I'll be
honest and admit I don't have the slightest clue as to
how to calculate it. (I'd have no problem with working out
the numbers for a wall, but I can't even guess at how to
handle an opening like this).
Could anyone give me a pointer to what the figures would be?
I'm just looking for a rough enough number so that I can
tell the management to get a "real" one - which I'm 99 percent
sure will come to teh conclusion that we'd be better off
keeping the door closed, giving everyone remote controls,
and even adding some more windows and tv monitors to the
guard booth.
The opening is about ten feet wide by eight feet high. There
are walls extending out another fifteen or so feet on each
side, and the garage itself is loosely sealed masonry (cinderblock)
with a bunch of vents scattered around.
In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
(Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
Thanks for your help.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
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Posted by The King on January 22, 2009, 4:45 pm
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:56:33 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
>Help me, O'bewon, you're my only hope.
>I'm just a reasonably competent bystander, hence my
>call out to the experts.
>The situation I'm facing is that my apartment complex has
>an enclosed, large (100 or so) car garage with a "lift door"
>at one end. (It's also got an upper level with a separate
>roadway entrance, and that one uses a remote controlled door).
>The garage is heated to a nominal 60 or so degrees, using
>low pressure steam from the main powerhouse that's fed
>into a half dozen or so blowers. We're in NYC so this
>means heating is needed a decent portion of the year.
>My question, and I'm hoping you'll treat me gently, is
>that the garage door is generally left open full time.
>(There's a staffed attendant room just inside, which has its
>own walls, heating, and a door into the main garage).
>There's got to be a huge heat loss issue here, but I'll be
>honest and admit I don't have the slightest clue as to
>how to calculate it. (I'd have no problem with working out
>the numbers for a wall, but I can't even guess at how to
>handle an opening like this).
>Could anyone give me a pointer to what the figures would be?
>I'm just looking for a rough enough number so that I can
>tell the management to get a "real" one - which I'm 99 percent
>sure will come to teh conclusion that we'd be better off
>keeping the door closed, giving everyone remote controls,
>and even adding some more windows and tv monitors to the
>guard booth.
>The opening is about ten feet wide by eight feet high. There
>are walls extending out another fifteen or so feet on each
>side, and the garage itself is loosely sealed masonry (cinderblock)
>with a bunch of vents scattered around.
>In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
>doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
>(Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
>Thanks for your help.
Why don't you suggest an air curtain?
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Posted by danny burstein on January 22, 2009, 5:27 pm
[ snippp... regarding an open garage door's heat loss ]
>>In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
>>doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
>>(Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
>>Thanks for your help.
>Why don't you suggest an air curtain?
Thanks.
That might be an option, but first I'd like to get
a feel for how much heat (and money) we're wasting.
Once I've got their attention [a], then we can start
looking at the different options. (I'm not that big
a fan of air curtains since, despite the manufacturer's
hype, they still let plenty of air go in and out and
also use up lots o fpower themselves.)
[a] I've had people in the complex tell me, with a straight
face, that we're heating the garage "for free" since
it's a tap off the main steam-lines that heat the
apartment buildings...
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
|
|
Posted by Bipolar Bear on January 23, 2009, 2:56 am
> [ snippp... regarding an open garage door's heat loss ]
> >>In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
> >>doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
> >>(Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
> >>Thanks for your help.
> >Why don't you suggest an air curtain?
> Thanks.
> That might be an option, but first I'd like to get
> a feel for how much heat (and money) we're wasting.
> Once I've got their attention [a], then we can start
> looking at the different options. (I'm not that big
> a fan of air curtains since, despite the manufacturer's
> hype, they still let plenty of air go in and out and
> also use up lots o fpower themselves.)
> [a] I've had people in the complex tell me, with a straight
> face, that we're heating the garage "for free" since
> it's a tap off the main steam-lines that heat the
> apartment buildings...
The "free heat" concept sounds like some kinda republican tax cut--and we
all know how well those have worked out long term.
So far as "heating the outside" then you could use a non-contact thermometer
take readings of the ground and objects <targets> placed in the air....take
readings moving away from the open door...then close the door and measure
how much time is taken for the objects <pavement gravel targets in the
ambient air> to reach outdoors ambient--good baseline heat-soak and
transmittal rate data here and the only variable is if the wind direction
/velocity happens to change.
FWIW, If I were the owner I would control garage doors to automattically
close after a few minutes and also only maintain enough garage heat to
assure the floor and water service piping temps stay barely above freezing.
Not your fault that he is a lazy and stupid ass--however, it's your fault
that you choose to continue living there along with his otherwise idiot
tenants.
HTH
--
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Posted by geothermaljones on January 22, 2009, 9:07 pm
Measure the condensate.
1 Lb is roughly 1000 (966?) Btus.
1 gallon = 8.34 Lbs
If it's district heating, they might be able to help...
If it's an onsite boiler, contact the utility Co.
goodluck
geothermaljones
> Help me, O'bewon, you're my only hope.
> I'm just a reasonably competent bystander, hence my
> call out to the experts.
> The situation I'm facing is that my apartment complex has
> an enclosed, large (100 or so) car garage with a "lift door"
> at one end. (It's also got an upper level with a separate
> roadway entrance, and that one uses a remote controlled door).
> The garage is heated to a nominal 60 or so degrees, using
> low pressure steam from the main powerhouse that's fed
> into a half dozen or so blowers. We're in NYC so this
> means heating is needed a decent portion of the year.
> My question, and I'm hoping you'll treat me gently, is
> that the garage door is generally left open full time.
> (There's a staffed attendant room just inside, which has its
> own walls, heating, and a door into the main garage).
> There's got to be a huge heat loss issue here, but I'll be
> honest and admit I don't have the slightest clue as to
> how to calculate it. (I'd have no problem with working out
> the numbers for a wall, but I can't even guess at how to
> handle an opening like this).
> Could anyone give me a pointer to what the figures would be?
> I'm just looking for a rough enough number so that I can
> tell the management to get a "real" one - which I'm 99 percent
> sure will come to teh conclusion that we'd be better off
> keeping the door closed, giving everyone remote controls,
> and even adding some more windows and tv monitors to the
> guard booth.
> The opening is about ten feet wide by eight feet high. There
> are walls extending out another fifteen or so feet on each
> side, and the garage itself is loosely sealed masonry (cinderblock)
> with a bunch of vents scattered around.
> In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
> doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
> (Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
> Thanks for your help.
> --
> _____________________________________________________
> Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
> dannyb@panix.com
> [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
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>I'm just a reasonably competent bystander, hence my
>call out to the experts.
>The situation I'm facing is that my apartment complex has
>an enclosed, large (100 or so) car garage with a "lift door"
>at one end. (It's also got an upper level with a separate
>roadway entrance, and that one uses a remote controlled door).
>The garage is heated to a nominal 60 or so degrees, using
>low pressure steam from the main powerhouse that's fed
>into a half dozen or so blowers. We're in NYC so this
>means heating is needed a decent portion of the year.
>My question, and I'm hoping you'll treat me gently, is
>that the garage door is generally left open full time.
>(There's a staffed attendant room just inside, which has its
>own walls, heating, and a door into the main garage).
>There's got to be a huge heat loss issue here, but I'll be
>honest and admit I don't have the slightest clue as to
>how to calculate it. (I'd have no problem with working out
>the numbers for a wall, but I can't even guess at how to
>handle an opening like this).
>Could anyone give me a pointer to what the figures would be?
>I'm just looking for a rough enough number so that I can
>tell the management to get a "real" one - which I'm 99 percent
>sure will come to teh conclusion that we'd be better off
>keeping the door closed, giving everyone remote controls,
>and even adding some more windows and tv monitors to the
>guard booth.
>The opening is about ten feet wide by eight feet high. There
>are walls extending out another fifteen or so feet on each
>side, and the garage itself is loosely sealed masonry (cinderblock)
>with a bunch of vents scattered around.
>In other words, there's no major breeze going through that
>doorway, but clearly there's lots of mixing.
>(Of course when there's a big wind, etc., etc.)
>Thanks for your help.