residential duct design modifications

Posted by a student on August 30, 2006, 12:24 pm

gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:

> >gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:

> >> >I have a LR which, on hot days, remains 5-10 deg hotter than the rest
> >> >of the house. The A/C is capable of cooling the LR, but that makes the
> >> >rest of the house uncomfortably cool. If you close the registers in an
> >> >effort to direct more air to the LR, it causes a lot of noise at the
> >> >registers as airflow is very strong everywhere except the LR.
> >> >The LR is twice as big as the next largest room in the house, and has
> >> >two registers. All other rooms have one. The LR registers are twice as
> >> >far from the blower as the rest of the registers. The air flow is
> >> >noticeably reduced at the LR registers when compared to other registers
> >> >in the house and the temperature at the LR registers is also 2-5
> >> >degrees higher.
> >> >The LR registers collectively share exclusive access the same trunk.
> >> >There are no significant leaks, but the duct path could be straigter
> >> >and some excess length could be trimmed (currently just compressed).
> >> >However, I do not believe straighting and fitting will sufficiently
> >> >improve the situation.
> >> >There is a header between the LR and the return which prevent efficient
> >> >return of hot air in the LR. There is a fan in the LR but it helps
> >> >little.
> >> >The LR is also the hottest room in the house due to windows, exterior
> >> >walls, and smaller attic space.
> >> >The A/C unit also appears to be oversized - typically on hot days the
> >> >cycle is only 8 minutes - on for 8, off for 8.
> >> >My thought at this point is to increase the size of the duct (trunk and
> >> >both branches) in order to increase airflow to the LR. Currently there
> >> >are four 8" trunks coming from the blower, each with two 6" branches. I
> >> >am proposing to increase the LR trunk to 12" and branches to 8".
> >> >Am I on the right track?
> >> >TIA,
> >> >chris
> >> yup, you're on the right track. all you need is another 5-7 years of
> >> hands on experience to arrive at a practical solution to the LR
> >> insufficient airflow problem.
> >> btw, what did the manual D say you needed for the LR duct sizing?
> >> what? no manual-D? errrr well, keep rolling the dice....

> >Yep. Or maybe a 5-7 minute conversation with someone who is willing
> >(and able) to give practical advice.

> Oh I'm willing to give you practical advice, the huge question is tho,
> are you willing to comprehend, understand & accept it?
> In order to help size your ducts, you're going to have to provide us
> with the Blower Curve chart for your particular furnace/air handler,
> as well as the T.E.S.P. fo the air distribution system. For
> simplicity sakes, post Make, Model & Serial # of furnace or air
> handler. Also post your measured TESP, how and where you measured it.
> From your past studies you will recollect that a blower will deliver a
> specific amount of air based on the TESP of the air distribution
> system.
> What if your TESP is off the charts? What do you think that will do
> for airflow? It doesnt matter if you have a 20" duct, the fan still
> will not deliver the required airflow.
> It's entirely feasible your entire duct system has to be replaced.
> It doesnt make a bit of difference how big your LR is, where its
> located, how many walls or how many windows it has. Regardless of
> all of its physical characteristics, a person can determine how many
> btu's are required to keep the room at 75 when its 95 outside. This
> is called a load calculation. AKA Manual J.
> How can you begin to size the duct if you're clueless on how many
> btu's are required for the LR??
> OK so now you've did a room by room load calc, and have determined if
> your ac system has been properly sized, (or not). You did this by
> comparing the load calc data to the engineering performance data for
> your particular ac unit, AT DESIGN CONDITIONS.
> OK ac unit is ok, blower is ok & within the fan curve chart, TESP is
> within manufacturers range, now do the manual-D, duct sizing!!!
> Here's the kicker.....ya cant do an accurate manual-d until you know
> your TESP, and you can only measure your TESP once all the air
> distribution is installed !!! Of course it is entirely possible to
> calculate your TESP. if only you knew how, and had all the required
> literature & info.....
> ok, wife says the moose steaks are off the barbie, so it's hasta-la
> bye bye for now.....

Just so you know, I am trying to educate myself on the subject a)
because I enjoy learning and b) because I have an interest in
residential property management. I have a background in engineering so
I think I am capable of understanding and measure things like TESP. I
also have experience in all phases of residential construction,
although the HVAC and electrical work was always performed by licensed
contractors.

I think it would be best if I understand things well myself and then I
will also be in a better position to gauge the competence of potential
contractors when I need to hire help.

I understand the importance of properly sizing equipment, calculating
loads and designing distribution systems and the part that the manuals
S, D, and J play in that, but I am more interested in troubleshooting
and pratical applications to existing systems. From what I can tell,
most systems are not designed or implemeted all that well. Obviously
it's not practical to replace every system that is improperly designed
or implemented.

I am planning to get copies of the ACCA manuals and I am looking for
additional resources if you have any recommendations. I am also
interested in practical recommendations on cost-efficient and essential
tools of the trade.

Thanks,

Chris

Posted by udarrell on August 30, 2006, 1:26 pm

a student wrote:

>Just so you know, I am trying to educate myself on the subject a)
>because I enjoy learning and b) because I have an interest in
>residential property management. I have a background in engineering so
>I think I am capable of understanding and measure things like TESP. I
>also have experience in all phases of residential construction,
>although the HVAC and electrical work was always performed by licensed
>contractors.
>I think it would be best if I understand things well myself and then I
>will also be in a better position to gauge the competence of potential
>contractors when I need to hire help.
>I understand the importance of properly sizing equipment, calculating
>loads and designing distribution systems and the part that the manuals
>S, D, and J play in that, but I am more interested in troubleshooting
>and pratical applications to existing systems. From what I can tell,
>most systems are not designed or implemeted all that well. Obviously
>it's not practical to replace every system that is improperly designed
>or implemented.
>I am planning to get copies of the ACCA manuals and I am looking for
>additional resources if you have any recommendations. I am also
>interested in practical recommendations on cost-efficient and essential
>tools of the trade.
>Thanks, Chris
>

Hi Chris, I am in agreement with your objectives, & applaud you for your
initiative!

Low airflow is a number one problem of improper duct designs & blower
applications!

The first priority is to reduce the heat-gain & heat-loss of the
conditioned space.

After you learn what tonnage the ductwork & system will handle, you then
decide which will be the most cost-effective way to go. Mid to Long-term
it is usually finding ways to reduce the tonnage required in order to
utilize the airflow being delivered, if that is within design Static
Pressure specs.

There are ductless split-systems that can be added to meet extreme high
heat-load cooling demands, & thereby further down size the central duct
system equipment.

The blower curve would need to be checked to see the tonnage it could
handle, at the equipment's required static pressure specs.

There is a possibility that could be done by using a proper sized TXV &
changing out the condenser to a reconditioned 10-SEER unit, ha. (Where
costs are the critical factor.) "When the sizing of equipment is right,
SEER becomes less of a factor." Always look at the EER ratings, not the
SEER ratings, the spread between them increases as the SEER goes higher!

Energy Conservation & saving the customer money with an effective
payback period should be the paramount priorities.

Read my Web pages to learn more problems to look for, & remedy. - udarrell

--
Air Conditioning's Affordable Path to the "Human Comfort Zone Goal"
http://www.udarrell.com/udarrell-air-conditioning.html

Posted by on August 30, 2006, 9:39 pm

>gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:

>> >gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:
>> >> >I have a LR which, on hot days, remains 5-10 deg hotter than the rest
>> >> >of the house. The A/C is capable of cooling the LR, but that makes the
>> >> >rest of the house uncomfortably cool. If you close the registers in an
>> >> >effort to direct more air to the LR, it causes a lot of noise at the
>> >> >registers as airflow is very strong everywhere except the LR.
>> >> >The LR is twice as big as the next largest room in the house, and has
>> >> >two registers. All other rooms have one. The LR registers are twice as
>> >> >far from the blower as the rest of the registers. The air flow is
>> >> >noticeably reduced at the LR registers when compared to other registers
>> >> >in the house and the temperature at the LR registers is also 2-5
>> >> >degrees higher.
>> >> >The LR registers collectively share exclusive access the same trunk.
>> >> >There are no significant leaks, but the duct path could be straigter
>> >> >and some excess length could be trimmed (currently just compressed).
>> >> >However, I do not believe straighting and fitting will sufficiently
>> >> >improve the situation.
>> >> >There is a header between the LR and the return which prevent efficient
>> >> >return of hot air in the LR. There is a fan in the LR but it helps
>> >> >little.
>> >> >The LR is also the hottest room in the house due to windows, exterior
>> >> >walls, and smaller attic space.
>> >> >The A/C unit also appears to be oversized - typically on hot days the
>> >> >cycle is only 8 minutes - on for 8, off for 8.
>> >> >My thought at this point is to increase the size of the duct (trunk and
>> >> >both branches) in order to increase airflow to the LR. Currently there
>> >> >are four 8" trunks coming from the blower, each with two 6" branches. I
>> >> >am proposing to increase the LR trunk to 12" and branches to 8".
>> >> >Am I on the right track?
>> >> >TIA,
>> >> >chris
>> >> yup, you're on the right track. all you need is another 5-7 years of
>> >> hands on experience to arrive at a practical solution to the LR
>> >> insufficient airflow problem.
>> >> btw, what did the manual D say you needed for the LR duct sizing?
>> >> what? no manual-D? errrr well, keep rolling the dice....
>> >Yep. Or maybe a 5-7 minute conversation with someone who is willing
>> >(and able) to give practical advice.

>> Oh I'm willing to give you practical advice, the huge question is tho,
>> are you willing to comprehend, understand & accept it?
>> In order to help size your ducts, you're going to have to provide us
>> with the Blower Curve chart for your particular furnace/air handler,
>> as well as the T.E.S.P. fo the air distribution system. For
>> simplicity sakes, post Make, Model & Serial # of furnace or air
>> handler. Also post your measured TESP, how and where you measured it.
>> From your past studies you will recollect that a blower will deliver a
>> specific amount of air based on the TESP of the air distribution
>> system.
>> What if your TESP is off the charts? What do you think that will do
>> for airflow? It doesnt matter if you have a 20" duct, the fan still
>> will not deliver the required airflow.
>> It's entirely feasible your entire duct system has to be replaced.
>> It doesnt make a bit of difference how big your LR is, where its
>> located, how many walls or how many windows it has. Regardless of
>> all of its physical characteristics, a person can determine how many
>> btu's are required to keep the room at 75 when its 95 outside. This
>> is called a load calculation. AKA Manual J.
>> How can you begin to size the duct if you're clueless on how many
>> btu's are required for the LR??
>> OK so now you've did a room by room load calc, and have determined if
>> your ac system has been properly sized, (or not). You did this by
>> comparing the load calc data to the engineering performance data for
>> your particular ac unit, AT DESIGN CONDITIONS.
>> OK ac unit is ok, blower is ok & within the fan curve chart, TESP is
>> within manufacturers range, now do the manual-D, duct sizing!!!
>> Here's the kicker.....ya cant do an accurate manual-d until you know
>> your TESP, and you can only measure your TESP once all the air
>> distribution is installed !!! Of course it is entirely possible to
>> calculate your TESP. if only you knew how, and had all the required
>> literature & info.....
>> ok, wife says the moose steaks are off the barbie, so it's hasta-la
>> bye bye for now.....

My strongest recommendation is for you to attend a 1-3 day class
taught by certified instructors on the topic at hand. Oh sure, you
may pick up a few tidbits on some web page or discussion group, but to
get the level of knowledge you are seeking is going to take a full on,
hands-on class dedicated to that topic alone.

http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com/members/airbalancing.cfm#begin

These people absolutely rock. And they have great specials on the
required tools of the trade.

Posted by a student on August 28, 2006, 4:25 pm

gofish@gonefishin.net wrote:

> >I have a LR which, on hot days, remains 5-10 deg hotter than the rest
> >of the house. The A/C is capable of cooling the LR, but that makes the
> >rest of the house uncomfortably cool. If you close the registers in an
> >effort to direct more air to the LR, it causes a lot of noise at the
> >registers as airflow is very strong everywhere except the LR.
> >The LR is twice as big as the next largest room in the house, and has
> >two registers. All other rooms have one. The LR registers are twice as
> >far from the blower as the rest of the registers. The air flow is
> >noticeably reduced at the LR registers when compared to other registers
> >in the house and the temperature at the LR registers is also 2-5
> >degrees higher.
> >The LR registers collectively share exclusive access the same trunk.
> >There are no significant leaks, but the duct path could be straigter
> >and some excess length could be trimmed (currently just compressed).
> >However, I do not believe straighting and fitting will sufficiently
> >improve the situation.
> >There is a header between the LR and the return which prevent efficient
> >return of hot air in the LR. There is a fan in the LR but it helps
> >little.
> >The LR is also the hottest room in the house due to windows, exterior
> >walls, and smaller attic space.
> >The A/C unit also appears to be oversized - typically on hot days the
> >cycle is only 8 minutes - on for 8, off for 8.
> >My thought at this point is to increase the size of the duct (trunk and
> >both branches) in order to increase airflow to the LR. Currently there
> >are four 8" trunks coming from the blower, each with two 6" branches. I
> >am proposing to increase the LR trunk to 12" and branches to 8".
> >Am I on the right track?
> >TIA,
> >chris

> yup, you're on the right track. all you need is another 5-7 years of
> hands on experience to arrive at a practical solution to the LR
> insufficient airflow problem.
> btw, what did the manual D say you needed for the LR duct sizing?
> what? no manual-D? errrr well, keep rolling the dice....

Yep. Or maybe I could have a 5-7 minute conversation with someone who
is willing
(and able) to give practical advice.

Posted by udarrell on August 28, 2006, 7:07 pm

a student wrote:

>I have a LR which, on hot days, remains 5-10 deg hotter than the rest
>of the house. The A/C is capable of cooling the LR, but that makes the
>rest of the house uncomfortably cool. If you close the registers in an
>effort to direct more air to the LR, it causes a lot of noise at the
>registers as airflow is very strong everywhere except the LR.
>The LR is twice as big as the next largest room in the house, and has
>two registers. All other rooms have one. The LR registers are twice as
>far from the blower as the rest of the registers. The air flow is
>noticeably reduced at the LR registers when compared to other registers
>in the house and the temperature at the LR registers is also 2-5
>degrees higher.
>

If no dampers in ducts, install them to help you balance the airflow.

>The LR registers collectively share exclusive access the same trunk.
>There are no significant leaks, but the duct path could be straigter
>and some excess length could be trimmed (currently just compressed).
>However, I do not believe straighting and fitting will sufficiently
>improve the situation.
>There is a header between the LR and the return which prevent efficient
>return of hot air in the LR. There is a fan in the LR but it helps
>little.
>The LR is also the hottest room in the house due to windows, exterior
>walls, and smaller attic space.
>The A/C unit also appears to be oversized - typically on hot days the
>cycle is only 8 minutes - on for 8, off for 8.
>

It is horrendously oversized! That is terrible!
It takes 5 minutes to achieve near its efficient running capacity.
What can be done with a little half-ton room A/C, over 900-sq.ft.
http://www.udarrell.com/airconditioner_current_temperature_btuh_charting.html

>My thought at this point is to increase the size of the duct (trunk and
>both branches) in order to increase airflow to the LR. Currently there
>are four 8" trunks coming from the blower, each with two 6" branches. I
>am proposing to increase the LR trunk to 12" and branches to 8".
>Am I on the right track?
>TIA,
>chris
>

A real good "Return Air" in the LR & dampers should help!
Here is some info on ductwork. - udarrell
http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_btuh_duct_sizing_air_conditioning_systems.html

--
Air Conditioning's Affordable Path to the "Human Comfort Zone Goal"
http://www.udarrell.com/udarrell-air-conditioning.html

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residential duct design modifications - Page 2