1920's wiring....

Posted by bud-- on October 27, 2009, 11:22 am

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:02:23 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>

>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>>>> Awl --
>>>> Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and super-high
>>>> quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver coated/tinned -- not just
>>>> ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to what the purpose of that coating
>>>> is.
>>>> The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A, AND
>>>> each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!
>>> You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because it
>>> usually was going to be soldered.

>>
>> So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the insulation
>> was added, in anticipation of soldering?
>> To avoid the local application of flux?

>
> Yep, that is quite common even up to the early Romex. A lot of
> neophyte home inspectors report it as cloth covered aluminum wire. We
> all get a chuckle out of that.
>
> BTW they usually dipped those connections in a pot of molten solder.
> The solder itself came in bars, not rolled up as wire.

In the "good old days" soldering irons were probably heated with a blow
torch. Makes a solder pot sound real good.

I think I read that tinning also protected the copper from rubber
insulation, which could deteriorate it.

Posted by David Nebenzahl on October 26, 2009, 4:33 pm

On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>>

>>> Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
>>> super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
>>> coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
>>> what the purpose of that coating is.

>>> The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for
>>> 15 A, AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!

>>
>> You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
>> it usually was going to be soldered.

>
> So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
> insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
> To avoid the local application of flux?

One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
make soldering easier.

At least that's my understanding ...

By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
credit for.

--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Posted by Existential Angst on October 26, 2009, 4:47 pm

> On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>>>> Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
>>>> super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
>>>> coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
>>>> what the purpose of that coating is.
>>>> The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A,
>>>> AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!
>>> You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
>>> it usually was going to be soldered.

>> So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
>> insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
>> To avoid the local application of flux?

> One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
> solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus make
> soldering easier.
> At least that's my understanding ...
> By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
> wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
> for.

Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
buy.
That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done the
rest of the house right. I was mostly right. :)

I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of electrical
fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area of electron
flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted joint, while
solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive bottleneck.

Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts present
the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact outlets.

I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under increasing
I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint under high I,
of various quality splices.

I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no joint
at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel. It was
a NYC code.
--
EA

> --
> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

Posted by RBM on October 26, 2009, 6:46 pm

>> On 10/26/2009 11:02 AM Existential Angst spake thus:

>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:38:56 -0400, "Existential Angst"
>>>>> Of course, the wiring is old, cloth covered, but in BX, and
>>>>> super-high quality. The wire seems to be nickel or silver
>>>>> coated/tinned -- not just ends, but the whole wire. Curious as to
>>>>> what the purpose of that coating is.
>>>>> The wire appears to be only 14 ga, but still more than ample for 15 A,
>>>>> AND each splice is wire nutted AND soldered!!
>>>> You answered your own question. They tinned the copper wire because
>>>> it usually was going to be soldered.
>>> So you mean the whole spool/reel of wire was tinned before the
>>> insulation was added, in anticipation of soldering?
>>> To avoid the local application of flux?

>> One would still need to use flux (most likely rosin, as in rosin-core
>> solder), but the tinning would prevent corrosion to some extent, plus
>> make soldering easier.
>> At least that's my understanding ...
>> By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
>> wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it
>> credit for.

> Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
> buy.
> That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
> trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
> the rest of the house right. I was mostly right. :)
> I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
> electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional area
> of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly twisted/nutted
> joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this conductive
> bottleneck.
> Ditto the spring-type clips on the backs of some outlets (which spell
> disaster, imo, having seen a number of these melt out). Wire nuts present
> the same problem, just not as egregious as these spring-contact outlets.
> I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
> anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.
> The bottom line would be, I guess, to do IR drop samplings, under
> increasing I, see what happens. Or measure temps at the wire nut joint
> under high I, of various quality splices.
> I believe it is NEC code that no wire-nutted joint -- and perhaps no joint
> at all -- can exist without access to it in some kind of box/panel. It
> was a NYC code.
> --
> EA

>> --
>> Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

I don't believe there has ever been any issue with the integrity of wire nut
splices. The real danger, and the reason that William Marr invented the wire
nut in 1914, was tripping around people's houses with a hot pot of lead,
while trying to dip the splices.
The particular type of cable you have will last and remain in good condition
provided it doesn't get overheated and dried out. Where you have it in
ceiling lighting outlets, where very high wattage lamps were installed close
to ceiling, is where it degrades especially badly.

Posted by Jules on October 26, 2009, 6:54 pm

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:47:00 -0400, Existential Angst wrote:

>> By the way, I'm glad you expressed your appreciation of this antiquated
>> wiring, which is often in much better condition than people give it credit
>> for.

>
> Yeah, that wiring and the brass plumbing was a big part of the decision to
> buy.

Sounds like we have similar wiring in our place (late 40s build) - the
problem I've found is generally in the light fittings, where years of heat
from bulbs has slowly cooked things and it's all turned a bit brittle
(fittings which take multiple bulbs being the worst). Cut further back
and it's stood the test of time pretty well.

> That and the incredible attic ladder -- I figgered anyone who took the
> trouble to install *that* quality ladder in a g-d attic had to have done
> the rest of the house right. I was mostly right. :)

Our place is interesting - it was all built by the old lady who used to
own it, and it seems like she did a piece here and a piece there as and
when she felt like it. Some of it's done extremely well, but then there
are other bits where corners were obviously cut...

> I once expressed the opinion that some significant percentage of
> electrical fires *must* be due to wire nuts, because cross-sectional
> area of electron flow is greatly reduced, even on a properly
> twisted/nutted joint, while solder virtually completely eleminates this
> conductive bottleneck.

Y'know, I was amazed the first time I visited the US and discovered that
typical wiring was held together with those things - I'd done plenty of
wiring overseas and it was always with junction boxes / fittings that had
proper insulated screw terminals inside. Using a wire nut would be a
hanging offense ;-)

> I was, however, sort of shouted down, but I still don't see wire nuts as
> anywhere near as effective or safe as soldering.

I've heard that soldered connections can melt if there's a serious
overload - but by that point there are probably other things to be
worrying about anyway. :-)

cheers

Jules

Page 2 of 13 < 1 2 3 > last >>

Similar Threads	Posted
How in the heck do I hang things in a 1920's building?!?	April 30, 2007, 3:16 pm
Wiring problems, and possibly unsafe old wiring	November 15, 2005, 1:40 pm
Wiring a Generator Independent of the house's wiring	April 17, 2006, 12:37 pm
Wiring ????	July 13, 2005, 7:25 pm
Help with Wiring	January 17, 2006, 7:23 pm
Wiring	January 20, 2006, 1:01 pm
Spa wiring	May 19, 2007, 9:31 am
OLD WIRING	June 8, 2007, 10:28 am
wiring a outside hot tub	September 18, 2007, 9:23 am
Outside Wiring	February 12, 2008, 7:41 am

1920's wiring.... - Page 2