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Posted by bud-- on October 14, 2009, 2:19 pm
dpb wrote:
> Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
> ...
>> I am trying to figure out how the switches for our patio lights (two
>> separate fixtures controlled by the same two switches) were wired.
>> Each switch has two black wires and one red wire -- no white with
>> black tape at either switch. There are neutrals (several, wire-nutted
>> together) in each box, but they are not connected to anything else in
>> the box. ...
>
> And they ( the neutrals) _shouldn't_ be tied to the switches; only the
> hot leg is to be switched.
>
> What the others said re: layout; w/ 3-wire cable there's no need to use
> the white as a hot; hence no tape.
>
> The fundamental question is "WHY" and "WHAT" are you trying to do?
Which John also asks. Are you just trying to understand how the circuit
works? Want to add to it? Doesn't work? Did it once work? Have you
disconnected wires? Do you have a meter or test light? Lightbulb(s) are OK?
>
> If you simply want a another light on the same switches, that could be
> done by adding it in parallel to one of the existing ones w/o needing to
> know the actual switch configuration.
>
> If it's more involved, then you'll need to figure out which is the feed
> and which are the travelers--that'll mean cutting the power and "ringing
> out" the wiring or discovering by another means which is the actual feed
> which may be deduce-able by looking at the arrangement--where is it most
> logical to have power coming from w/ shortest cable runs from what else
> is on the circuit?
At least you need to describe what wires leave the box in the same cable
or pipe and what those wires connect to inside the boxes. Romex or pipe?
In addition to the 3-ways shown in the link (all variations on the same
circuit) there is a "California 3-way", and old knob and tube might use
a "Carter" 3-way.
--
bud--
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Posted by JIMMIE on October 13, 2009, 2:39 pm
> http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch...
> shows 8 (eight!!) different ways of wiring 3-way switches.
> I am trying to figure out how the switches for our patio lights (two
> separate fixtures controlled by the same two switches) were wired. Each
> switch has two black wires and one red wire -- no white with black tape
> at either switch. There are neutrals (several, wire-nutted together) in
> each box, but they are not connected to anything else in the box. The
> only configurations shown at the above Web site with no black-taped
> white wires are Option 1 "Fixture Controlled by Two Switches: Power
> Through a Switch Box" and Option 5 "End-of-Run Lights Controlled by Two
> Three-Way Switches"; but I can't see what the difference is between
> those two configurations anyway.
> Any other possibility for 3-way switch wiring without black-taped white?
> Perce
There is only one electrical or schematic topology for wiring a 3 way
switch . Hot wire from service to common on Switch 1, travelers on
switch 1 to travelers on switch 2, common on switch 2 to hot terminal
on load, neutral on load to neutral connection in service. All of the
other configuration are physical topologies meaning you can have wires
running all over the place but they better be like the electrical
topology. If you bring the service connection in at a switch, doesnt
matter which, the hot wire should connect to the common terminal on
that switch. If it connects in the middle the hot wire will connect to
a wire that goes back to the common on a switch. Dont just look at the
diagrams someone else drew, draw up what you have. Identify the wires
going from switch to switch, switch to lamp, etc. figure out which is
the hot and neutral coming from the service. Until you do this you are
just guessing.
Jimmie
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Posted by John Grabowski on October 13, 2009, 4:53 pm
> http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm
> shows 8 (eight!!) different ways of wiring 3-way switches.
> I am trying to figure out how the switches for our patio lights (two
> separate fixtures controlled by the same two switches) were wired. Each
> switch has two black wires and one red wire -- no white with black tape at
> either switch. There are neutrals (several, wire-nutted together) in each
> box, but they are not connected to anything else in the box. The only
> configurations shown at the above Web site with no black-taped white wires
> are Option 1 "Fixture Controlled by Two Switches: Power Through a Switch
> Box" and Option 5 "End-of-Run Lights Controlled by Two Three-Way
> Switches"; but I can't see what the difference is between those two
> configurations anyway.
> Any other possibility for 3-way switch wiring without black-taped white?
*Let's try a different approach. What are you trying to accomplish? Are you
having problems with the existing wiring?
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Posted by John Grabowski on October 13, 2009, 5:17 pm
>> http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm
>> shows 8 (eight!!) different ways of wiring 3-way switches.
>> I am trying to figure out how the switches for our patio lights (two
>> separate fixtures controlled by the same two switches) were wired. Each
>> switch has two black wires and one red wire -- no white with black tape
>> at either switch. There are neutrals (several, wire-nutted together) in
>> each box, but they are not connected to anything else in the box. The
>> only configurations shown at the above Web site with no black-taped white
>> wires are Option 1 "Fixture Controlled by Two Switches: Power Through a
>> Switch Box" and Option 5 "End-of-Run Lights Controlled by Two Three-Way
>> Switches"; but I can't see what the difference is between those two
>> configurations anyway.
>> Any other possibility for 3-way switch wiring without black-taped white?
> *Let's try a different approach. What are you trying to accomplish? Are
> you having problems with the existing wiring?
*It sound as though you have a two wire line in one switch box and a two
wire load in the other box and a three wire between the two boxes. In this
instance 120 volts comes into one switch box. The white neutral of the two
wire is connected to the white of the three wire to carry the neutral over
to the next switch box. The black 120 volt hot wire gets connected to the
black terminal on the switch. The red and black of the three wire are the
travelers and get connected to the other terminals on the switch.
At the other switch location there is a two wire that goes to the light.
The white on the three wire gets connected to the white on the two going to
the light to carry the neutral up to the light. The black of the two wire
from the light gets connected to the black terminal on the three way switch.
The red and black wires from the three wire cable are travelers and go on
the other terminals on the switch.
If there are additional cables in the box with the 120 volt feed then that
feed is also supplying juice to something else.
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Posted by Percival P. Cassidy on October 14, 2009, 4:27 pm
John Grabowski wrote:
>> http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm
>> shows 8 (eight!!) different ways of wiring 3-way switches.
>> I am trying to figure out how the switches for our patio lights (two
>> separate fixtures controlled by the same two switches) were wired.
>> Each switch has two black wires and one red wire -- no white with
>> black tape at either switch. There are neutrals (several, wire-nutted
>> together) in each box, but they are not connected to anything else in
>> the box. The only configurations shown at the above Web site with no
>> black-taped white wires are Option 1 "Fixture Controlled by Two
>> Switches: Power Through a Switch Box" and Option 5 "End-of-Run Lights
>> Controlled by Two Three-Way Switches"; but I can't see what the
>> difference is between those two configurations anyway.
>> Any other possibility for 3-way switch wiring without black-taped white?
> *Let's try a different approach. What are you trying to accomplish? Are
> you having problems with the existing wiring?
I am returning to a problem I posted here 4 1/2 years ago under the
title "weird pilot light behavior." I couldn't find it again in Google
except where it was reproduced at:
http://www.homegardenguides.com/garden-forum/home-repairs-forum/69787-weird-pilot-light-behavior.html
To summarize:
Both 3-way switches (one in the house, the other in the garage) operate
the patio lights just fine, but I have been unable to understand the
behavior of the integral pilot lights. NB: *pilot lights," which should
be ON when the lights are on, OFF when the lights are off.
I had not realized until a few days ago that there are so many possible
configurations of 3-way switching. I posted my message here thinking
that my lights and switches might be wired in an uncommon configuration
that would explain the behavior of the pilot lights.
The switches are Pass & Seymour/Legrand TM83PLICC with integral LED
pilot lights. The circuit diagram shows one end of the LEDs connected to
a silver-colored screw labeled NEU and the other end connected through
resistors to each of the brass screws labeled 3W. There are also a black
COM screw and a green screw with the standard Ground marking.
I substituted these switches for the original ones that had no pilot
lights and added the connections from the silver-colored screws to the
whites in each box.
The pilot light of the switch in the house is ON in one position of the
switch, OFF in the other position of the switch, regardless of the
position of the switch in the garage. The COMmon of this switch is where
power is supplied to the circuit.
The pilot light of the switch in the garage glows dimly, irrespective of
the position of either switch -- except when there is no bulb in any
of the fittings.
The Pass & Seymour wiring diagram shows such a switch only at the point
where power is supplied to the system but a note says that the switches
can be used in both positions. HOWEVER, a message at
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/wiring-diagram-three-way-switches-pilot-light-22868/index3/
indicates that Leviton prescribes a different wiring arrangement when a
pilot light is required at the load-common position -- AND this requires
not only an additional conductor between the two switches but also
access to both of the pilot light connections (which the Pass & Seymour
switches do not provide).
Perce
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