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Posted by FDR on July 21, 2005, 4:38 am
> This is my first visit to this group, so the question may be a repeat.
> I am thinking about installing a return pipe on my hot water feed to the
> kitchen to reduce the amount of cold water that is wasted before the hot
> water has reached the sink.
> Where is the best place to make the connection close to the hot water
> tank? It takes nearly four litres of cold water to run through the pipes
> before the hot water arrives. I have lots of pipe and connections left
> over from different projects and I might as well use them for this. My
> ceiling is easy to access. My problem is knowing where to connect near the
> tank.
> I have also read that some people have installed a "U" near the tank to
> reduce the loss of heat when hot water is not being drawn for use. Anyone
> have any details about this idea?
> Many thanks for your ideas.
>
> Bob
This was covers on a Ask this Old House episode. I'm sure they have it on
their website.
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Posted by Bob on July 21, 2005, 8:58 am
FDR wrote:
>
>>This is my first visit to this group, so the question may be a repeat.
>>I am thinking about installing a return pipe on my hot water feed to the
>>kitchen to reduce the amount of cold water that is wasted before the hot
>>water has reached the sink.
>>Where is the best place to make the connection close to the hot water
>>tank? It takes nearly four litres of cold water to run through the pipes
>>before the hot water arrives. I have lots of pipe and connections left
>>over from different projects and I might as well use them for this. My
>>ceiling is easy to access. My problem is knowing where to connect near the
>>tank.
>>I have also read that some people have installed a "U" near the tank to
>>reduce the loss of heat when hot water is not being drawn for use. Anyone
>>have any details about this idea?
>>Many thanks for your ideas.
>>
>>Bob
>
>
> This was covers on a Ask this Old House episode. I'm sure they have it on
> their website.
>
Somebody else mentionned the show. I never thought about
checking their web site. Thank you for idea.
Bob
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Posted by William Brown on July 21, 2005, 9:35 am
On mine, I had a nipple put between the tank and the drain, and plumbed
the return line into that. Yes, it will mean a little extra work when
the heater has to be replaced. I save a lot of water because the supply
line across the basement is 3/4 inch, and around here the water rates
have gone up far more that gas or electricity. I insulated the supply
line and left the return uninsulated, and it works well without a pump,
but I have a lot of vertical line to the upstairs bathroom where the
crossover is, and I'm sure that helps.
Its true that there is some heat loss, but where I live we have far more
heating than cooling days, so I just consider it a radiator. Installing
a check valve will prevent any back flow.
Bob wrote:
> This is my first visit to this group, so the question may be a repeat.
> I am thinking about installing a return pipe on my hot water feed to the
> kitchen to reduce the amount of cold water that is wasted before the hot
> water has reached the sink.
> Where is the best place to make the connection close to the hot water
> tank? It takes nearly four litres of cold water to run through the pipes
> before the hot water arrives. I have lots of pipe and connections left
> over from different projects and I might as well use them for this. My
> ceiling is easy to access. My problem is knowing where to connect near
> the tank.
> I have also read that some people have installed a "U" near the tank to
> reduce the loss of heat when hot water is not being drawn for use.
> Anyone have any details about this idea?
> Many thanks for your ideas.
>
> Bob
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Posted by Rob Mills on July 21, 2005, 9:40 am
.
>>>I am thinking about installing a return pipe on my hot water feed to the
>>>kitchen to reduce the amount of cold water that is wasted before the hot
>>>water has reached the sink.<<<
Don't recall all the details but a house I used to own had a re-circulating
system (to the baths, aprox 40 feet) that worked great but used no pump. If
I remember correctly it used a 3/4 in pipe up through the attic as a feed
and a 1/2 in pipe as a return under the house. The 1/2 return connected to
bottom of tank at the drain valve. I assume the 1/2 line was used as a
restriction.
The house was built in 1952 and the builder installed this setup when it was
built. We lived there aprox 35 years and never had any problems with it, had
instant hot water at the tub and bath room sinks when the valve was opened.
I would not have liked it, had we had small children. RM~
PS, It was a natural gas fired water tank.
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Posted by HerHusband on July 21, 2005, 10:19 am
Bob,
> I am thinking about installing a return pipe on my hot water
> feed to the kitchen to reduce the amount of cold water that
> is wasted before the hot water has reached the sink.
If you're only recirculating the kitchen line, I doubt you'll save enough
water to matter.
I installed a recirculating system in our house, for convenience, not
energy savings. With long 3/4" supply lines and low flow shower heads, we
were waiting well over a minute each morning for hot water to reach the far
shower. While it did waste a lot of water, it simply wasn't convenient.
After installing the recirculating system, we have hot water in about 5
seconds (nearly instantaneous on the full flow tub faucet).
> Where is the best place to make the connection close to the
> hot water tank?
Usually, the return line is plumbed into the drain valve at the bottom of
the hot water tank, with a tee for the drain so you can still empty the
tank. But, my tank sits in a small alcove down in a deep drip pan. So, I
couldn't make a connection there. Instead, I put a tee on the cold water
inlet, and tied my recirculation line in there. It requires a check valve
in the return line, valves to turn off and bleed air out of the return
line, and of course a pump (though there are methods of making thermosyphon
recirculators). My recirculation line is 1/2" and I used a Grundfos pump
with a built-in timer. It runs a few hours in the morning, and a few hours
in the evening to cover most of our likely showering times.
Other than the regular insulation in our floor, I did not insulate our hot
water lines. When the pump is running, it's easy to tell there is heat loss
from the hot water and recirculation lines. The floors above the pipe runs
are warm, like radiant heat. Feels nice on cold mornings. :) But, it is an
energy loss. It also warms the cold water lines a bit that run close to the
hot water lines. So, we have to run the cold water a few seconds
when we want really cold water. Compared to the rest of our energy use I
haven't noticed any major change in our electric bill (we're all electric
here).
We're on a private well, so I have to think the energy loss from the
recirculation system is offset by not having to run our well pump as often.
> I have also read that some people have installed a "U" near
> the tank to reduce the loss of heat when hot water is not
> being drawn for use.
Heat rises, so if your tank is lower than your fixtures, it might be a
smart idea. In my case, the hot water tank sits above all the plumbing runs
in the crawlspace. So, it makes a "U" naturally by coming up out of the top
of the tank, and heading down to the crawlspace below.
Anthony
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