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Confusion over Dimmers for CFLs Wayne Boatwright 04-27-2008
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Posted by Don Klipstein on April 27, 2008, 2:37 pm

>On Sun 27 Apr 2008 09:02:12a, Robert Allison told us...

>> If you invest in the special fixtures (I have been involved with
>> these mostly in can lights) and install them, you will come out
>> ahead financially. Although the dimmable on board ballasts cost
>> more than standard can lights, you only have to buy them once.
>
>Coincidentally, that's exactly what I want to dim. I have 12 recessed cans
>in my kitchen, each with a 23 watt conventional screw-in CFL. Full power
>is ideal when I'm doing a lot of cooking and cleanup (which is usually at
>night), but there are many times when I wish I could dim them when I don't
>need that much light.
>
>> The bulbs that carry their own onboard ballast that makes them
>> dimmable are way more (about 20 bucks a piece) than standard
>> cfls. Since you are going to have to change them over the years,
>> you will save over and over by going with the dimmable fixtures.
>
>Yes, I found out just how expensive when I first looked for the CFLs, and
>didn't buy the dimmable units because of the price and the rumor? that they
>didn't always perform well at dimming.
>
>I suppose the best choice is to just bite the bullet and replace the cans
>with dimmable models. I will have to find suitable retrofit models, as it
>is a vaulted ceiling with no crawl space above to work from.

Keep in mind that fixtures with ballasts take a specific model or
limited range of specific models of pin-base ballastless CFLs.

I advise to get one that takes a more common and industry standard bulb,
such as 13 watt twintube (F13TT, AKA PL-13)
or 13 watt quadtube (F13DTT, AKA PLC-13)
or 26 watt quadtube (F26DTT, AKA PLC-26).

Any other bulb should be one that is available at home centers and is
available under the "Big 3" brands (GE, Philips or Sylvania - preferably
in the online catalogs of all 3, though model numbers may vary slightly).

Personally, I have been most impressed with CFL recessed ceiling
fixtures if they take 13 watt twintubes or doubletwintubes over 13 watts,
two bulbs per fixture, with the bulbs in a horizontal position. Also, I
have found 26 watt doubletwintubes to be nice and especially
impressively bright.

The more common sizes (13 watt twintube and 26 watt doubletwintube
especially) are available in different colors, though home centers
normally don't carry all available colors.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Posted by Wayne Boatwright on April 27, 2008, 3:26 pm
On Sun 27 Apr 2008 11:37:57a, Don Klipstein told us...

> said:
>
>>On Sun 27 Apr 2008 09:02:12a, Robert Allison told us...
>
>>> If you invest in the special fixtures (I have been involved with
>>> these mostly in can lights) and install them, you will come out
>>> ahead financially. Although the dimmable on board ballasts cost more
>>> than standard can lights, you only have to buy them once.
>>
>>Coincidentally, that's exactly what I want to dim. I have 12 recessed
>>cans in my kitchen, each with a 23 watt conventional screw-in CFL. Full
>>power is ideal when I'm doing a lot of cooking and cleanup (which is
>>usually at night), but there are many times when I wish I could dim them
>>when I don't need that much light.
>>
>>> The bulbs that carry their own onboard ballast that makes them
>>> dimmable are way more (about 20 bucks a piece) than standard
>>> cfls. Since you are going to have to change them over the years, you
>>> will save over and over by going with the dimmable fixtures.
>>
>>Yes, I found out just how expensive when I first looked for the CFLs,
>>and didn't buy the dimmable units because of the price and the rumor?
>>that they didn't always perform well at dimming.
>>
>>I suppose the best choice is to just bite the bullet and replace the
>>cans with dimmable models. I will have to find suitable retrofit
>>models, as it is a vaulted ceiling with no crawl space above to work
>>from.
>
> Keep in mind that fixtures with ballasts take a specific model or
> limited range of specific models of pin-base ballastless CFLs.
>
> I advise to get one that takes a more common and industry standard
> bulb,
> such as 13 watt twintube (F13TT, AKA PL-13)
> or 13 watt quadtube (F13DTT, AKA PLC-13)
> or 26 watt quadtube (F26DTT, AKA PLC-26).
>
> Any other bulb should be one that is available at home centers and is
> available under the "Big 3" brands (GE, Philips or Sylvania - preferably
> in the online catalogs of all 3, though model numbers may vary
> slightly).
>
> Personally, I have been most impressed with CFL recessed ceiling
> fixtures if they take 13 watt twintubes or doubletwintubes over 13
> watts, two bulbs per fixture, with the bulbs in a horizontal position.
> Also, I have found 26 watt doubletwintubes to be nice and especially
> impressively bright.
>
> The more common sizes (13 watt twintube and 26 watt doubletwintube
> especially) are available in different colors, though home centers
> normally don't carry all available colors.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
>

Also very good information. Since I'm faced with replacing 12 recessed
cans, I may give those less expensive screw-in CFLs a try first. I'm not
looking forward to the expense and effort required to replace those cans,
especially since I have no access from above.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Sunday, 04(IV)/27(XXVII)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
Today is: Rogation Sunday
Countdown till Memorial Day
4wks 11hrs 40mins
-------------------------------------------
I never remember a face, but I always
forget a name.
-------------------------------------------

Posted by Don Klipstein on April 27, 2008, 3:50 pm
wrote in part:

>Also very good information. Since I'm faced with replacing 12 recessed
>cans, I may give those less expensive screw-in CFLs a try first. I'm not
>looking forward to the expense and effort required to replace those cans,
>especially since I have no access from above.

One more thing to watch out for when using CFLs in recessed cans: Heat.

CFLs are paradoxically more efficient at producing non-radiant heat than
incandescents, despite also being more efficient at producing light.
(What CFLs produce less of is infrared - becomes heat, but mostly outside
the fixture.)

CFLs don't withstand heat as well as incandescents do. In screw-base
ones, their ballast electronics can get cooked all too easily.

If you start having screw-base CFLs not specifically rated for
recessed ceiling fixtures dying young, it's probably another reason to
get fixtures that have ballasts and take ballastless CFLs.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Posted by Wayne Boatwright on April 27, 2008, 4:25 pm
On Sun 27 Apr 2008 12:50:43p, Don Klipstein told us...

> wrote in part:
>
>>Also very good information. Since I'm faced with replacing 12 recessed
>>cans, I may give those less expensive screw-in CFLs a try first. I'm not
>>looking forward to the expense and effort required to replace those cans,
>>especially since I have no access from above.
>
> One more thing to watch out for when using CFLs in recessed cans:
Heat.
>
> CFLs are paradoxically more efficient at producing non-radiant heat
than
> incandescents, despite also being more efficient at producing light.
> (What CFLs produce less of is infrared - becomes heat, but mostly outside
> the fixture.)
>
> CFLs don't withstand heat as well as incandescents do. In screw-base
> ones, their ballast electronics can get cooked all too easily.
>
> If you start having screw-base CFLs not specifically rated for
> recessed ceiling fixtures dying young, it's probably another reason to
> get fixtures that have ballasts and take ballastless CFLs.
>
> - Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
>

Thanks, Don, understood. What I have presently are 12 CFL 23 watt floods
installed in recessed cans (no covers). They're conventional, not
dimmable, and they've been in regular use for about a year and a half with
no problem. I presume there's sufficient venting to prevent the
overheating problem. Also, I would guess that since they are floodlight
configuration, they were expected to be used in can lights. The same with
out outdoor floodlights.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Sunday, 04(IV)/27(XXVII)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
Today is: Rogation Sunday
Countdown till Memorial Day
4wks 10hrs 40mins
-------------------------------------------
Make like a Tom and Cruise.
-------------------------------------------


Posted by Art Todesco on April 27, 2008, 1:41 pm
Robert Allison wrote:
> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
>> On Sun 27 Apr 2008 08:08:26a, Robert Allison told us...
>>
>>
>>> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have heard that there are dimmers available that will work with
>>>> conventional CFLs and don't require the special dimmable CFLs, but I
>>>> have yet to find one that clearly states it will work this way.
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone here know about such a dimmer?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are special fixtures for cfls that allow them to be dimmed. On
>>> the other hand, there are special cfls that allow them to be dimmed
>>> with a standard dimmer. You need to get the right combination for
>>> either to work correctly.
>>>
>>> http://www.pathnet.org/sp.asp?id=23506
>>>
>>> http://www.energy.wsu.edu/documents/building/light/compact_fluor.pdf
>>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Robert.
>>
>
> Your welcome. In addition to the other information, I will give you this;
>
> If you invest in the special fixtures (I have been involved with these
> mostly in can lights) and install them, you will come out ahead
> financially. Although the dimmable on board ballasts cost more than
> standard can lights, you only have to buy them once.
>
> The bulbs that carry their own onboard ballast that makes them dimmable
> are way more (about 20 bucks a piece) than standard cfls. Since you are
> going to have to change them over the years, you will save over and over
> by going with the dimmable fixtures.

Actually, they are a little more ....
not $20 more or not even $20 for a dimmable
CFL. I paid about $8 for the dimmable
CFLs that I have.

Page 3 of 4       < 1 2 3 > last >>
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