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Considering detached metal clad workshop questions/comments nospambob 08-19-2006
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Posted by Pete C. on August 19, 2006, 9:59 pm
RemodGuy wrote:
>
> prfesser@hotmail.com wrote:
> > RemodGuy wrote:
> > > > Wire is cheap,
> > > > boxes are cheap, breakers are cheap. >
> > > > Best -- Terry
> > >
> > > Where do you live that wire is cheap? It's gone up almost 400% here in
> > > the last year.
> >
> > I just checked Lowe's and 100' of 12 gauge with ground is $59. The
> > price I recall is $20, so clearly you're correct, wire appears to have
> > gone up quite a bit.
> >
> > However, the original poster indicated that he was having a metal
> > building erected, he wants heat & air, storage, windows, garage door
> > opener, etc. What's the cost? (I honestly don't know) $4000? If
> > that's a decent ballpark estimate, an extra $120 of materials for two
> > more 20 A circuits seems a trivial addition. And a wise investment.
>
> I wasn't trying to jump in your S # * T, I agree with you. I was
> actually asking a sincere question about the cost of wire. Lowes in my
> area had 12-2 up to $102 a roll. It's down to about $92. I found a
> coil in the shop attic circa january '06 from Lowes with a $56 price
> tag still on it. If memory serves me correctly, a year before that it
> was about $27.
>
> Re: shop wiring - I would put in a 100amp 20 slot sub. I have that
> now. plenty of room for lights. Plenty of openings for 220 circuits
> as need. I run all the bigger equipment (jointer, planer, compressor,
> etc.) on dedicated circuits. If I need to add anything, the source is
> nearby and effort and cost is very low.

Current copper prices certainly suck, but it's still a one time cost and
you will otherwise regret it every day for decades if you skimp and
don't put in enough power the first time.

I just did a full replacement upgrade to the 20' x 32' detached shop at
my house. The previous owner who built the shop only had a 30A 240V feed
with a six space sub panel in the shop. Might have been adequate if I
was a woodworker, but since my preference is for metal it was hopelessly
inadequate.

I ripped out all of the old electrical, trenched in a new 80' run of
conduit and pulled new feeder to a new 32 space 125A sub panel. I also
ran the feeder two gauges heavier than the code minimum for 125A since
in this application it will get pushed close to 125A on a regular basis
(short duty cycle though) and I want to minimize voltage drop over the
long run.

The bottom line is just bite the bullet and do it right the first time.
The cost to do it right will only continue to rise so waiting to do it
later won't help. $500 in materials today might be $1,000 next year and
unless you have some real good investments you aren't going to make up
the difference waiting.

Pete C.

PexSupply PEX Tools 468x60
Posted by R. Pierce Butler on August 20, 2006, 12:42 am

> RemodGuy wrote:
>>
>> prfesser@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > RemodGuy wrote:
>> > > > Wire is cheap,
>> > > > boxes are cheap, breakers are cheap. >
>> > > > Best -- Terry
>> > >
>> > > Where do you live that wire is cheap? It's gone up almost 400%
>> > > here in the last year.
>> >
>> > I just checked Lowe's and 100' of 12 gauge with ground is $59. The
>> > price I recall is $20, so clearly you're correct, wire appears to
>> > have gone up quite a bit.
>> >
>> > However, the original poster indicated that he was having a metal
>> > building erected, he wants heat & air, storage, windows, garage door
>> > opener, etc. What's the cost? (I honestly don't know) $4000? If
>> > that's a decent ballpark estimate, an extra $120 of materials for two
>> > more 20 A circuits seems a trivial addition. And a wise investment.
>>
>> I wasn't trying to jump in your S # * T, I agree with you. I was
>> actually asking a sincere question about the cost of wire. Lowes in my
>> area had 12-2 up to $102 a roll. It's down to about $92. I found a
>> coil in the shop attic circa january '06 from Lowes with a $56 price
>> tag still on it. If memory serves me correctly, a year before that it
>> was about $27.
>>
>> Re: shop wiring - I would put in a 100amp 20 slot sub. I have that
>> now. plenty of room for lights. Plenty of openings for 220 circuits
>> as need. I run all the bigger equipment (jointer, planer, compressor,
>> etc.) on dedicated circuits. If I need to add anything, the source is
>> nearby and effort and cost is very low.
>
> Current copper prices certainly suck, but it's still a one time cost and
> you will otherwise regret it every day for decades if you skimp and
> don't put in enough power the first time.
>
> I just did a full replacement upgrade to the 20' x 32' detached shop at
> my house. The previous owner who built the shop only had a 30A 240V feed
> with a six space sub panel in the shop. Might have been adequate if I
> was a woodworker, but since my preference is for metal it was hopelessly
> inadequate.
>
> I ripped out all of the old electrical, trenched in a new 80' run of
> conduit and pulled new feeder to a new 32 space 125A sub panel. I also
> ran the feeder two gauges heavier than the code minimum for 125A since
> in this application it will get pushed close to 125A on a regular basis
> (short duty cycle though) and I want to minimize voltage drop over the
> long run.
>
> The bottom line is just bite the bullet and do it right the first time.
> The cost to do it right will only continue to rise so waiting to do it
> later won't help. $500 in materials today might be $1,000 next year and
> unless you have some real good investments you aren't going to make up
> the difference waiting.
>
> Pete C.
>

I put in 200 amp service in my workshop. I bought the materials 2 years
ago so it was considerably cheaper than if I had bought them this year.

Posted by Pete C. on August 20, 2006, 9:22 am
"R. Pierce Butler" wrote:
>
>
> > RemodGuy wrote:
> >>
> >> prfesser@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> > RemodGuy wrote:
> >> > > > Wire is cheap,
> >> > > > boxes are cheap, breakers are cheap. >
> >> > > > Best -- Terry
> >> > >
> >> > > Where do you live that wire is cheap? It's gone up almost 400%
> >> > > here in the last year.
> >> >
> >> > I just checked Lowe's and 100' of 12 gauge with ground is $59. The
> >> > price I recall is $20, so clearly you're correct, wire appears to
> >> > have gone up quite a bit.
> >> >
> >> > However, the original poster indicated that he was having a metal
> >> > building erected, he wants heat & air, storage, windows, garage door
> >> > opener, etc. What's the cost? (I honestly don't know) $4000? If
> >> > that's a decent ballpark estimate, an extra $120 of materials for two
> >> > more 20 A circuits seems a trivial addition. And a wise investment.
> >>
> >> I wasn't trying to jump in your S # * T, I agree with you. I was
> >> actually asking a sincere question about the cost of wire. Lowes in my
> >> area had 12-2 up to $102 a roll. It's down to about $92. I found a
> >> coil in the shop attic circa january '06 from Lowes with a $56 price
> >> tag still on it. If memory serves me correctly, a year before that it
> >> was about $27.
> >>
> >> Re: shop wiring - I would put in a 100amp 20 slot sub. I have that
> >> now. plenty of room for lights. Plenty of openings for 220 circuits
> >> as need. I run all the bigger equipment (jointer, planer, compressor,
> >> etc.) on dedicated circuits. If I need to add anything, the source is
> >> nearby and effort and cost is very low.
> >
> > Current copper prices certainly suck, but it's still a one time cost and
> > you will otherwise regret it every day for decades if you skimp and
> > don't put in enough power the first time.
> >
> > I just did a full replacement upgrade to the 20' x 32' detached shop at
> > my house. The previous owner who built the shop only had a 30A 240V feed
> > with a six space sub panel in the shop. Might have been adequate if I
> > was a woodworker, but since my preference is for metal it was hopelessly
> > inadequate.
> >
> > I ripped out all of the old electrical, trenched in a new 80' run of
> > conduit and pulled new feeder to a new 32 space 125A sub panel. I also
> > ran the feeder two gauges heavier than the code minimum for 125A since
> > in this application it will get pushed close to 125A on a regular basis
> > (short duty cycle though) and I want to minimize voltage drop over the
> > long run.
> >
> > The bottom line is just bite the bullet and do it right the first time.
> > The cost to do it right will only continue to rise so waiting to do it
> > later won't help. $500 in materials today might be $1,000 next year and
> > unless you have some real good investments you aren't going to make up
> > the difference waiting.
> >
> > Pete C.
> >
>
> I put in 200 amp service in my workshop. I bought the materials 2 years
> ago so it was considerably cheaper than if I had bought them this year.

Right, but 200A service can't be done as a sub panel from the service in
your house, 125A is the maximum sub panel per NEC. 200A requires either
a separate service or a split 400A service typically.

Pete C.

Posted by R. Pierce Butler on August 22, 2006, 3:55 pm

> "R. Pierce Butler" wrote:
>>
>>
>> > RemodGuy wrote:
>> >>
>> >> prfesser@hotmail.com wrote:
>> >> > RemodGuy wrote:
>> >> > > > Wire is cheap,
>> >> > > > boxes are cheap, breakers are cheap. >
>> >> > > > Best -- Terry
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Where do you live that wire is cheap? It's gone up almost 400%
>> >> > > here in the last year.
>> >> >
>> >> > I just checked Lowe's and 100' of 12 gauge with ground is $59.
>> >> > The price I recall is $20, so clearly you're correct, wire appears
>> >> > to have gone up quite a bit.
>> >> >
>> >> > However, the original poster indicated that he was having a metal
>> >> > building erected, he wants heat & air, storage, windows, garage
>> >> > door opener, etc. What's the cost? (I honestly don't know)
>> >> > $4000? If that's a decent ballpark estimate, an extra $120 of
>> >> > materials for two more 20 A circuits seems a trivial addition.
>> >> > And a wise investment.
>> >>
>> >> I wasn't trying to jump in your S # * T, I agree with you. I was
>> >> actually asking a sincere question about the cost of wire. Lowes in
>> >> my area had 12-2 up to $102 a roll. It's down to about $92. I found
>> >> a coil in the shop attic circa january '06 from Lowes with a $56
>> >> price tag still on it. If memory serves me correctly, a year before
>> >> that it was about $27.
>> >>
>> >> Re: shop wiring - I would put in a 100amp 20 slot sub. I have that
>> >> now. plenty of room for lights. Plenty of openings for 220
>> >> circuits as need. I run all the bigger equipment (jointer, planer,
>> >> compressor, etc.) on dedicated circuits. If I need to add anything,
>> >> the source is nearby and effort and cost is very low.
>> >
>> > Current copper prices certainly suck, but it's still a one time cost
>> > and you will otherwise regret it every day for decades if you skimp
>> > and don't put in enough power the first time.
>> >
>> > I just did a full replacement upgrade to the 20' x 32' detached shop
>> > at my house. The previous owner who built the shop only had a 30A
>> > 240V feed with a six space sub panel in the shop. Might have been
>> > adequate if I was a woodworker, but since my preference is for metal
>> > it was hopelessly inadequate.
>> >
>> > I ripped out all of the old electrical, trenched in a new 80' run of
>> > conduit and pulled new feeder to a new 32 space 125A sub panel. I
>> > also ran the feeder two gauges heavier than the code minimum for 125A
>> > since in this application it will get pushed close to 125A on a
>> > regular basis (short duty cycle though) and I want to minimize
>> > voltage drop over the long run.
>> >
>> > The bottom line is just bite the bullet and do it right the first
>> > time. The cost to do it right will only continue to rise so waiting
>> > to do it later won't help. $500 in materials today might be $1,000
>> > next year and unless you have some real good investments you aren't
>> > going to make up the difference waiting.
>> >
>> > Pete C.
>> >
>>
>> I put in 200 amp service in my workshop. I bought the materials 2
>> years ago so it was considerably cheaper than if I had bought them this
>> year.
>
> Right, but 200A service can't be done as a sub panel from the service in
> your house, 125A is the maximum sub panel per NEC. 200A requires either
> a separate service or a split 400A service typically.
>
> Pete C.
>

That makes sense and indeed I have my own service entrance and meter for
the shop.

I was going to put in 100 amp service but the cost was only a little more
so I went with 200 amp.

I don't even want to think what the copper wire would cost for the service
entrance now.


Posted by R. Pierce Butler on August 19, 2006, 10:44 am
prfesser@hotmail.com wrote in news:1155997373.222116.139720
@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com:

>
> nospambob@vcoms.net wrote:
>> Previous owner had land graded for a workshop but didn't follow
>> through to build it. Currently try to do woodworking work around
>> inadequate space and electrical capability in cramped half of small 2
>> car garage. Electricians don't return calls to upgrade garage by
>> adding 2-3 new circuits and wood frame builders react the same. A
>> builder of metal buildings has visited and called back with answers so
>> we're considering going with him.
>>
>> Would like users observations both sides of the fence and would they
>> do it again type of comments. Cabinets on walls could be made to be
>> free standing if screws into the frame aren't viable. Double car door
>> and personnel door and three windows are minimum at this time.
>> Air/heat required in Augusta, Georgia area. Septic for half bath and
>> sink are no problem as we can't connect to the existing one.
>>
>> Four duplex receptacles and garage door opener plus one ceiling light
>> all on a 13A circuit. A 12K window air conditioner is all that should
>> be on that circuit at one time but I have sneaked the lathe on without
>> popping the breaker but shop vac pops it in no time.
>>
>> Anxiously waiting comments! TIA!!
>
> I can't comment too specifically on a metal shop, as mine's a 20x20'
> wooden shop, but a few observations:
>
> --Air and heat will require insulation.
> --I think you're correct; you'll need freestanding cabinets. Screws in
> the walls will cause leaks or rust or ??? Maybe there's another way to
> wall-mount cabinets in an all metal shop?
> --13A?? I've seen 15A, 20A but not 13A. Anyone who wires a shop with
> fewer than two 20A circuits is likely to regret it. Wire is cheap,
> boxes are cheap, breakers are cheap. In fact, a 20 A 220 v circuit
> might be a really good idea. Plus two 110 v 20A circuits. Many 110
> motors can be wired for 220, which reduces the starting and running
> current so you don't get those annoying sags in voltage. Other folks
> might take issue with this opinion, I dunno...
>
> Best -- Terry
>
>

Wire used to be cheap.

Running motors at 220VAC is a good idea.

Having said that, I wired my shop with multiple dedicated circuits. I have
no less than 4 circuits just for wall outlets. Add to that a circuit each
for lights, saw, air compressor, and heat pump. Overkill? Probably. I
have yet to trip a breaker.



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