Contractor hit a wire while nailing up moulding in kitchen - Page 5

> On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

> >On Oct 14, 5:56=A0pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >> >About the comment of using a stud finder as a foolproof method of
> >> >finding wires, and scanning everywhere before nailing. =A0As Roger
> >> >mentioned, there's a top plate running along the wall, and there are
> >> >(toe)nails attaching the stud to the plate. =A0Nobody except a
> >> >blithering idiot would run a wire in a location that would require
> >> >them to drill through the (toe)nails. =A0More likely the wire was eit=

> >> >set into notches, or just draped or stapled up in the soffit.
> >> And the "contractor" would still have known there was a possibility of
> >> hitting wire if he had used his scanner first. The wire may not have
> >> been running along the plate at all - it may (and most likely was)
> >> have been coming THROUGH the plate to go down to a switch or
> >> receptacle in the wall - and the nail ANYWHERE but where he put ir
> >> would have been a total non issue.

> >You're putting another layer of drywall or paneling over an existing
> >wall. =A0Do you scan the entire room to locate the wires? =A0Do you scan
> >every stud and joist along its entire length? =A0How long does that
> >take? =A0What about if there were a pipe in the wall? =A0A wire that
> >wasn't live until a switch was flicked on?
> >Contract law is full of cases that were determined based on
> >"reasonable expectations". =A0Code is full of requirements that dictate
> >where and how wires should be run. =A0In the vast majority of cases its
> >not an issue as nothing ever happens - even if the wires are run
> >incorrectly. =A0You're backtracking and cherry-picking this one example
> >and using it to make a blanket statement that would suck down a lot of
> >time with very little benefit. =A0If 100 carpenters didn't scan the
> >walls, probably one or two would hit a live wire, none if it were run
> >correctly. =A0So to prevent the one occurrence you want all 100
> >carpenters to scan all the walls all of the time. =A0Please. =A0Why not
> >just recommend using construction adhesive to attach the trim? =A0That's
> >even safer!

> >> Knowing there was a live wire in the immediate area, the nail would
> >> have been moved 3 or 4 inches one way or the other and no problem..

> >Hey, any hints on who won last week's big game?
> >The fact of the matter is that someone ran a wire where it shouldn't
> >have been, or the guy installing the trim used too long of a nail.

> >> When working in older homes in particular, you ASSUME there is a wire
> >> there untill you prove to your satisfaction there is none. With
> >> today's low-cost technology =A0readily available there is NO EXCUSE fo=

> >> a contractor or a handyman to EVER put a nail , a drill, or a saw into
> >> a live wire.

> >I've been swatting nails for 35 years. =A0I've never hit a live wire. =

> >also have never used a scanner to scan all the surfaces. =A0If I did,
> >guess who'd be paying for my time? =A0Every job I did I'd have to charge
> >for that 'extra' service, and it would only pay off in extremely rare
> >cases. =A0I'd still get paid.
> >This all goes to risk management. =A0Do you want to pay up front to me,
> >whether or not there is a problem, or, _if_ there is a problem pay to
> >fix it? =A0A case could also be made that hitting the wire is doing the
> >owner a favor by locating a shoddy wiring job.
> >R

> I look at the room and the layout of the electrics and say "where did
> they connect that?" and I know whether the wire went up or down (or
> both) from a switch or receptacle, and if wires run across between
> receptacles through the sruds, and at what height. I also mark where
> the studs are - putting in drywall screws where there is no stud does
> no good at all. When hanging items I also try to locate hanger nails
> in studs whenever possible - and with the studfinder I also know if
> there is a metal pipe (or other metal article) in the wall, as well as
> the wiriing and the location of the studs.
> I then stay away from the location of wires and pipes when driving
> screws or nails, and use extreme caution when opening a hole in a wall
> where either exists.
> Not very productive to cut a hole in a wall to install a box for a
> light switch, only to find a forced air duct taking up all the space
> either.
> Helps to know where the "fire stops" are too, when trying to pull new
> wiring into a wall. - and if other wires share the space before
> attempting to drill through the "fire stop" to pull in a new wire. The
> stud finder lets me know where they are and if they exist. Gives me an
> idea how long the job might end up taking.
> By "fire stop" I mean the 2X4 nailed in across between 2 studs,
> usually between where you can access to feed a wire (whether attic or
> basement) and the location of the switch/outlet/box you are trying to
> connect to.
> So it takes half an hour longer to do the job =A0(or even to quote it if
> you are a contractor) - you KNOW what you are up against before it
> happens - and believe me - THAT is good.
> My Dad was a professional electrician - I worked with him many times
> on both new construction and renos - and KNOW that wires are not
> always in the center of the stud, and when they aren't they are not
> always protected by a "scab plate". If you did the original wiring,
> you have control over that. If you didn't, you don't..
> I also know that not all electricians are as neat or logical in their
> layout as others. My dad was a pro - many are not. If I need to work
> in my house or a friend's house I don't just assume everything is as
> it should be, or that I'm going to be "lucky"
> Now, when you have to break out concrete to do drain work in a
> basement, and you don't KNOW where the existing pipes run, That can be
> a challenge. Last project I had my plumber look at it and give me his
> "best guess" - then we laid out what we figured was a "safe" cut - cut
> it with a diamond saw, and carefully broke it out with the Kango,
> making sure not to let the chisel get in too deep. Good thing, because
> the ABS pipe was NOT where we thought it was. and we could easily have
> broken the pipe.

> On Oct 13, 8:01 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

> > > > "> Had a guy come in to help put up wood moulding in the kitchen. M=

> > > > have
> > > > > hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
> > > > > He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.
> > > > > Flipped
> > > > > the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.
> > > > > Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.
> > > > > Is it?
> > > > *In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over t=

> > > > years
> > > > it is possible to have wiring anywhere. This is the kind of thing t=

> > > > will
> > > > surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing in=

> > > > the
> > > > wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably
> > > > nicked.
> > > > The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or les=

> > > > Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat =

> > > > if it
> > > > is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it
> > > > touches.
> > > > Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will
> > > > become
> > > > dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.
> > > > For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have h=

> > > > take a
> > > > look.
> > > EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
> > > the other side.
> > > its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -

> > Agree with John and Bob. I would also say the contractor is not
> > responsible for this. As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
> > to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
> > reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

> Yep. =A0Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
> there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
> The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
> behind a wall. =A0He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
> aren't wires too close to the surface.
> If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
> attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
> basically the owner's.
> R
> Say WHAT?
> Steve

>On Oct 13, 8:01 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

>> > > > hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
>> > > > He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.

>> > > > the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.
>> > > > Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.
>> > > > Is it?
>> > > *In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the

>> > > surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
>> > > wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably

>> > > The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
>> > > Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and if

>> > > is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
>> > > Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will become
>> > > dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.
>> > > For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him

>> > > look.
>> > EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
>> > the other side.
>> > its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -
>> > - Show quoted text -

>> Agree with John and Bob.   I would also say the contractor is not
>> responsible for this.  As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
>> to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
>> reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

>Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
>there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
>The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
>behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
>aren't wires too close to the surface.
>If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
>attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
>basically the owner's.
>R

> On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 05:51:34 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

>>On Oct 13, 8:01 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:

>>> > > > hit a wire becaue it blew a breaker.
>>> > > > He pulled the nail out (small nail) and hammered it in elsewhere.

>>> > > > the breaker back on. Said don't worry about it.
>>> > > > Now I lie awake at night fearing its a fire hazard.
>>> > > > Is it?
>>> > > *In a 1920's house that has had some electrical improvements over the

>>> > > surface as a problem weeks, months or years from now. By nailing into the
>>> > > wiring and causing a dead short some of the copper wire is probably

>>> > > The wire may only be connected at that point by a hair, more or less.
>>> > > Depending on the load that travels over that point it can overheat and

>>> > > is in contact with combustible materials will burn whatever it touches.
>>> > > Eventually the wire will burn apart and whatever it is feeding will

>>> > > dead. To answer your question: Yes it is a potential fire hazard.
>>> > > For safety and piece of mind get an electrician in there and have him

>>> > > look.
>>> > EXACTLY! open the wall and inspect the damage. perhaps access it from
>>> > the other side.
>>> > its a real potential fire hazard- Hide quoted text -
>>> > - Show quoted text -
>>> Agree with John and Bob.   I would also say the contractor is not
>>> responsible for this.  As others have pointed out, wiring is supposed
>>> to be run far enough back that a finishing nail from molding can't
>>> reach it or else have a metal plate covering it.

>>Yep. Even if you had a contract, and the contract was any good,
>>there'd be a clause in there about "latent and concealed conditions".
>>The contractor doesn't have X-ray vision, and can't determine what is
>>behind a wall. He has a reasonable expectation to believe that there
>>aren't wires too close to the surface.
>>If the contractor was using unnecessarily long nails - say 3" to
>>attach some trim - then there's some responsibility there, but it's
>>basically the owner's.
>>R

> Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
> reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.

> There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
> ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.

> Just about every stud finder out there also detects live AC wires - no
> reason a contractor should EVER hit an un-expected live wire.
> There is a live wire there untill you prove there is not. PERIOD.
> ASSuming there is not is both dangerous and foolhardy.