Copper tubing and natural gas?

Posted by Tom G on November 4, 2009, 11:34 am

> Awl -
> I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
> overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
> Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
> or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.
> I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
> against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
> odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
> out at the end.
> Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
> If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
> sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.
> tia
> --
> EA

When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been run
on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas, the city
refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used for the gas
lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and he pointed out
to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the tubing had a certain
manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember). I had to call the
manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper I could find that
code and then point it and the code regulations out to the inspector from
the city and then it was approved. As I remember it, the copper had to be a
certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from forming from the natural gas.

Tom G.

Posted by Existential Angst on November 4, 2009, 11:48 am

>> Awl -
>> I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
>> overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
>> Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
>> or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.
>> I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
>> against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery?
>> Seems odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and
>> then wimp out at the end.
>> Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
>> If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
>> sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.
>> tia
>> --
>> EA

> When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been run
> on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas, the
> city refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used for the
> gas lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and he
> pointed out to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the tubing
> had a certain manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember). I had
> to call the manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper I could
> find that code and then point it and the code regulations out to the
> inspector from the city and then it was approved. As I remember it, the
> copper had to be a certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from forming
> from the natural gas.

That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
mentioned it.
Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because only
a few places make this distinction.
Your contractor seems like he was on the ball!

What kind of tubing did you wind up using? Special tubing? Flexible or
rigid?
--
EA

> Tom G.
>

Posted by dpb on November 4, 2009, 12:25 pm

Existential Angst wrote:
...

> That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
> mentioned it.
> Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because only
> a few places make this distinction.

That's the whole point--it doesn't make any difference excepting for
what your Code or supplier requirements are.

There are quite a number of studies on the effects of natural gas
impurities on copper alloys as well as galvanized available on the web
but again, they're of no consequence fundamentally to the question of
what your local jurisdiction requirements are.

So, check w/ them and find out...

--

Posted by Existential Angst on November 4, 2009, 1:26 pm

> Existential Angst wrote:
> ...

>> That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
>> mentioned it.
>> Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because
>> only a few places make this distinction.

> That's the whole point--it doesn't make any difference excepting for what
> your Code or supplier requirements are.
> There are quite a number of studies on the effects of natural gas
> impurities on copper alloys as well as galvanized available on the web but
> again, they're of no consequence fundamentally to the question of what
> your local jurisdiction requirements are.
> So, check w/ them and find out...

Well, I was more interested in the actual physical effects, and was
wondering if there was a consensus on this porosity issue.

Codes are not always logical.
NYC had the most oppressive electrical code in the country perhaps, and then
one day decided to lighten up and go with the NEC. Go figger....
--
EA

> --

Posted by Tom G on November 4, 2009, 4:54 pm

>>> Awl -
>>> I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
>>> overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
>>> Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using
>>> 1/2 or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.
>>> I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
>>> against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery?
>>> Seems odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and
>>> then wimp out at the end.
>>> Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
>>> If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
>>> sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.
>>> tia
>>> --
>>> EA

>> When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been
>> run on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas,
>> the city refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used
>> for the gas lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and
>> he pointed out to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the
>> tubing had a certain manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember).
>> I had to call the manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper
>> I could find that code and then point it and the code regulations out to
>> the inspector from the city and then it was approved. As I remember it,
>> the copper had to be a certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from
>> forming from the natural gas.

> That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
> mentioned it.
> Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because
> only a few places make this distinction.
> Your contractor seems like he was on the ball!
> What kind of tubing did you wind up using? Special tubing? Flexible or
> rigid?
> --
> EA

Just stuck with the existing flexible copper tubing because it had the
proper letter code to meet code, in the end.
It hadn't made sense to me that the manufacturer would have installed
flexible copper tubing that couldn't be used with natural gas and propane as
they wouldn't have know what the gas source in the field would have been.

>> Tom G.

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Copper tubing and natural gas? - Page 3