Dead Electrical Circuit Troubleshooting

re: " By the way, I've taken this opportunity to replace some old a/c
outlets, and none of the ones I've worked on so far have been hot,
with the breaker on."

Please don't tell us that this means you've been replacing outlets
with the breaker on, even if the oulet read dead when you started the
work. Since you don't know what's casuing the problem, you don't know
what could make it go away.

A loose connection in a junction box could re-connect with something
as simple as someone walking across the living room floor.

Besides, it rarely makes sense to make changes to a problem situation
before you know what the problem is. This is a general statement, not
just related to electricity. Making changes while troubleshooting a
problem introduces variables that may mask the original problem or
make the tracing of steps more difficult - especially if you are going
to turn this over to someone else - like an electrician. Now you've
got to tell him everything you changed from the original setup which
just makes the whole situation more confusing

I agree completely, You have an obvious open circuit, which can just as
easily close and become energized, so caution should be taken. Also, why
potentially complicate the existing problem by making more changes? First
find and correct the problem, then move on. There are times when I have to
replace all the outlets and switches in a house, and even though I am a
"professional" and do this for a living, and have for over 35 years, I do it
room by room, killing the power then turning back on and testing. If you
take too big a bite, and something goes wrong, it just takes that much more
time to find it

Posted by on April 7, 2008, 12:37 pm

Trevor,

As I said before, you need to find out what is on this circuit. So
check any outlets and switches that you haven't checked yet.

A few things to check for:

1) At the circuit breaker: Test the voltage (with the breaker on)
between the hot terminal of the breaker and the neutral terminal
strip. Is there 120V or does the lamp on the tester light? If no,
replace. If yes, turn it off and verify that the power disconnects.
For safety reasons, I would make sure that only ONE hand is in contact
with the panel at a time. If you replace the breaker, turn off the
main breaker before removing the breaker. The pros probably don't but
they are use to working inside the box, you are not.

2) With the main circuit breaker off, verify that the neutral and
ground wire screws in the panel are tight.

3) If the breaker is good, then you need to check each box on the
circuit. Check for power coming into the box. If there is no power
then the problem will be 1) bad wire (unlikely if you haven't been
working around the wires) or 2) that the power never left the previous
box. Go to the the previous box and check for loose connections, loose
wire nuts, loose terminal screws. If the wires are pushed into the
back or the receptacle instead of being wrap around the screws then I
would replace the outlet and use the screw terminals instead. Back
stabbed connection can weaken over time (or so I been told). If the
wires are pushed into the back of the outlet and the outlet has power
DO NOT assume that the wires leaving the outlet have power. You will
need to check.

4) If after checking all the boxes and you still can't find the
problem then there are a few possibilities. 1) that a wire is damage
between two boxes, 2) That you missed a box, 3) That a box is hidden
in the walls (against code but it happens) or 4) ?

Good luck.

Phil

Posted by Terry on April 7, 2008, 7:20 pm

On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:27:55 -0700 (PDT), pcgeek86@gmail.com wrote:

>> >> > Hello guys,

>> >> > I've got a dead circuit in my house. I tested the output of the

>> >> > breaker, and it's fine. I have also done some research, which

>> >> > indicates that a tripped GFI outlet could cause the problem, however,

>> >> > I removed the GFI that's on the dead circuit, and there is no power

>> >> > going to the GFI even. None of the lines, on that circuit, that I've

>> >> > located in my house are hot.

>> >> > Does anyone have some additional troubleshooting ideas?

>> >> > Thanks,

>> >> > Trevor

>> >> First you want to determine if the hot leg is dead, or the neutral, or

>> >> both.

>> >> If both legs are dead, I'd be looking for a GFCI device upstream of all

>> >> the

>> >> dead stuff. If not, assuming you have determined which breaker controls

>> >> the

>> >> string, and it's good, you need to find anything live on that circuit,

>> >> and

>> >> check for loose, possibly back stabbed connections there. I would

>> >> probably

>> >> pay most attention to outside outlets that are dead, as the hostile

>> >> environment lends itself to corrupting connections

>> > Actually, it's funny you mention that. I only recently discovered the

>> > front, outdoor a/c outlet, but I actually did replace the a/c outlet

>> > in the back of my house. I only recently moved here, so I hadn't

>> > noticed the one out front previously. The wires on the back one indeed

>> > looked worn by the elements, however, there was no power there either.

>> > I was surprised, because, from what I can tell, that outlet would be

>> > the first one in the circuit that I'm having problems with, at least,

>> > the conduit traces very near to it, and the next outlets are somewhat

>> > farther away.

>> > I still need to check the a/c outlet in the front of the house, but as

>> > I mentioned, I'm pretty sure that, that isn't the first one in the

>> > chain, because of where the conduit goes.

>> > I'm thinking that I might just have an electrician come out and look

>> > at it, even though I'm sure it's going to cost me an arm and a leg.

>> > Having my garage door stuck open is kind of a problem.

>> > Thanks,

>> > Trevor

>> I'm curious as to how you have determined which breaker controls this "dead"

>> circuit. You can't test breakers with a proximity tester as there is too

>> much electrical field inside the panel, it'll always show "live". At the

>> very least I would switch off and back on, all circuits in the panel, to

>> reset them

>I determined the dead circuit based on both the labeling on the inside

>of the breaker panel, and also, before it died, I switched it back on

>once, and it worked. I am using a Greenlee GT-11 proximity tester, and

>to verify that the dead breaker is indeed hot, I disabled the other

>breakers around it, left the one live, and tested it. Even so, the

>proximity tester usually has to be pretty close to a specific wire to

>verify that it's hot, but just to make sure, I did disable the other

>ones near it.

>1. Do you think it's worth just replacing the breaker anyway, to see

>if it clears up anything? It sounds like a good idea to switch off/on

>all the other breakers .... I hadn't thought of that.

>---

>2. Can I replace the GFI outlet in the 1st floor bathroom with a

>standard outlet (which I actually have on hand), for the sake of

>troubleshooting? If so, how would I go about doing that? The GFI

>outlet has two hots (black), and two grounds (white), so could I

>attach these the same way to a standard outlet (would I need to break

>the tab, or anything?)?

>---

>BTW, I did remove the breaker panel to test the breakers, and also so

>I could trace the bad line up to its respective conduit. Are there

>some specific safety steps you wanted to provide? I'm all for them,

>since I'm personally rather scared of electricity. By the way, I've

>taken this opportunity to replace some old a/c outlets, and none of

>the ones I've worked on so far have been hot, with the breaker on. The

>only other areas I have to test for being hot are the front-outdoor

>outlet, and a couple switches in the garage.

>Thanks,

>Trevor

Swap a known working breaker with the suspect one.

Changing the GFI shouldn't be necessary. Your tester will tell you if
the wires in the box are hot. You can replace the receptacle for the
test, but you need a GFI there when you are done. One the GFI there
are "line" terminals and "load" terminals. I would put a piece of
black tape on "line" piece of Romex. A piece of tape on the black and
white. If you change it to a standard receptacle all the blacks go on
one side and all the whites go on the other. The darker color screws
is for the black wires.

I think the tester you are using is a good choice. All you need to
know at this point is....is it hot.

When you are tracing the wire inside the panel make sure the white
wire is tight at the bus bar.

Maybe you will have access to the attic and will be able to visually
find the first box in the run.

Posted by on April 7, 2008, 8:16 pm

> On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 05:27:55 -0700 (PDT), pcgee...@gmail.com wrote:

> >> >> > Hello guys,

> >> >> > I've got a dead circuit in my house. I tested the output of the

> >> >> > breaker, and it's fine. I have also done some research, which

> >> >> > indicates that a tripped GFI outlet could cause the problem, however,

> >> >> > I removed the GFI that's on the dead circuit, and there is no power

> >> >> > going to the GFI even. None of the lines, on that circuit, that I've

> >> >> > located in my house are hot.

> >> >> > Does anyone have some additional troubleshooting ideas?

> >> >> > Thanks,

> >> >> > Trevor

> >> >> First you want to determine if the hot leg is dead, or the neutral, or

> >> >> both.

> >> >> If both legs are dead, I'd be looking for a GFCI device upstream of all

> >> >> the

> >> >> dead stuff. If not, assuming you have determined which breaker controls

> >> >> the

> >> >> string, and it's good, you need to find anything live on that circuit,

> >> >> and

> >> >> check for loose, possibly back stabbed connections there. I would

> >> >> probably

> >> >> pay most attention to outside outlets that are dead, as the hostile

> >> >> environment lends itself to corrupting connections

> >> > Actually, it's funny you mention that. I only recently discovered the

> >> > front, outdoor a/c outlet, but I actually did replace the a/c outlet

> >> > in the back of my house. I only recently moved here, so I hadn't

> >> > noticed the one out front previously. The wires on the back one indeed

> >> > looked worn by the elements, however, there was no power there either.

> >> > I was surprised, because, from what I can tell, that outlet would be

> >> > the first one in the circuit that I'm having problems with, at least,

> >> > the conduit traces very near to it, and the next outlets are somewhat

> >> > farther away.

> >> > I still need to check the a/c outlet in the front of the house, but as

> >> > I mentioned, I'm pretty sure that, that isn't the first one in the

> >> > chain, because of where the conduit goes.

> >> > I'm thinking that I might just have an electrician come out and look

> >> > at it, even though I'm sure it's going to cost me an arm and a leg.

> >> > Having my garage door stuck open is kind of a problem.

> >> > Thanks,

> >> > Trevor

> >> I'm curious as to how you have determined which breaker controls this "dead"

> >> circuit. You can't test breakers with a proximity tester as there is too

> >> much electrical field inside the panel, it'll always show "live". At the

> >> very least I would switch off and back on, all circuits in the panel, to

> >> reset them

> >I determined the dead circuit based on both the labeling on the inside

> >of the breaker panel, and also, before it died, I switched it back on

> >once, and it worked. I am using a Greenlee GT-11 proximity tester, and

> >to verify that the dead breaker is indeed hot, I disabled the other

> >breakers around it, left the one live, and tested it. Even so, the

> >proximity tester usually has to be pretty close to a specific wire to

> >verify that it's hot, but just to make sure, I did disable the other

> >ones near it.

> >1. Do you think it's worth just replacing the breaker anyway, to see

> >if it clears up anything? It sounds like a good idea to switch off/on

> >all the other breakers .... I hadn't thought of that.

> >---

> >2. Can I replace the GFI outlet in the 1st floor bathroom with a

> >standard outlet (which I actually have on hand), for the sake of

> >troubleshooting? If so, how would I go about doing that? The GFI

> >outlet has two hots (black), and two grounds (white), so could I

> >attach these the same way to a standard outlet (would I need to break

> >the tab, or anything?)?

> >---

> >BTW, I did remove the breaker panel to test the breakers, and also so

> >I could trace the bad line up to its respective conduit. Are there

> >some specific safety steps you wanted to provide? I'm all for them,

> >since I'm personally rather scared of electricity. By the way, I've

> >taken this opportunity to replace some old a/c outlets, and none of

> >the ones I've worked on so far have been hot, with the breaker on. The

> >only other areas I have to test for being hot are the front-outdoor

> >outlet, and a couple switches in the garage.

> >Thanks,

> >Trevor

> Swap a known working breaker with the suspect one.

> Changing the GFI shouldn't be necessary. Your tester will tell you if

> the wires in the box are hot. You can replace the receptacle for the

> test, but you need a GFI there when you are done. One the GFI there

> are "line" terminals and "load" terminals. I would put a piece of

> black tape on "line" piece of Romex. A piece of tape on the black and

> white. If you change it to a standard receptacle all the blacks go on

> one side and all the whites go on the other. The darker color screws

> is for the black wires.

> I think the tester you are using is a good choice. All you need to

> know at this point is....is it hot.

> When you are tracing the wire inside the panel make sure the white

> wire is tight at the bus bar.

> Maybe you will have access to the attic and will be able to visually

> find the first box in the run.

Alright, so I swapped two breaker lines with each other, and the
problem still prevails. I think that it must be a wiring issue
somewhere, but I still can't find the first item in the grouping. I
know that the line going out from the breaker is hot.

I tested the garage switches, and outlets, and they area all dead too.

A co-worker of mine has a son-in-law who's an electrician in my area.
I think I'm going to just have him come out and look at it. I assume
it would be safest to disable the breaker for the bad circuit at this
point?

You guys have all been very helpful. Thank you so much.

Thanks,

Trevor

Posted by dpb on April 7, 2008, 8:39 pm

pcgeek86@gmail.com wrote:
...

> Alright, so I swapped two breaker lines with each other, and the

> problem still prevails. I think that it must be a wiring issue

> somewhere, but I still can't find the first item in the grouping. I

> know that the line going out from the breaker is hot.

That's logical conclusion.

Did you do the exhaustive test of anything that is switched off by
turning off that breaker? There are only two possibilities -- nothing
on the circuit is live or one or more items are. If the former, you
have basically identified the disconnect is before or at the first; if
the latter, then you have at least a candidate for the starting point.

Looking at the location of the feed and the location of the dead
outlets, it should be relatively straightforward to figure out what is
the least linear feet of wire direction in which the run could have been
made. That would be the most probable way it was done (assuming this is
original wiring--if it's an added circuit, it would be more likely to be
the easiest access way, not necessarily the shortest.)

> I tested the garage switches, and outlets, and they area all dead too.

> A co-worker of mine has a son-in-law who's an electrician in my area.

> I think I'm going to just have him come out and look at it. I assume

> it would be safest to disable the breaker for the bad circuit at this

> point?

If you're retiring from the field, I would recommend that, yes...

--

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