Do you get what you pay for? - Page 2

> Existential Angst wrote:
>> Awl --
>> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
>> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
>> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
>> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
>> Bosch 2,000 - 72
>> GE 1850 - 70
>> GE 1500 - 69
>> So far, so good, right? Heh....
>> Kenmore 3200 - 68
>> Wolf 5200 - 67
>> GE 2800 - 65
>> Viking 5500 - 63
>> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
>> Dacor 6000 - 59
>> KithenAid 3700 - 50
>> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
>> coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
>> correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
>> whatsoever.
>> If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
>> alone,
>> you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
>> barn,
>> and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
>> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
>> electric
>> smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
>> rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS
>> is
>> 4th from the bottom.
>> How can this be?
>> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
>> tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While
>> Wolf
>> and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
>> they
>> are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
>> reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.
>> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
>> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
>> creamed
>> Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
>> yesterday,
>> with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
>> general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
>> tellling the truth?
>> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
>> tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
>> Dysons.
>> It's just amazing.
>> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
>> live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
>> smoke,
>> and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
>> Gazelles
>> for about 1/4 of a century..
>> --
>> EA
> The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
> one else's opinion.

>
> > Existential Angst wrote:
> >> Awl --
> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
> >> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
> >> GE 1850 - 70
> >> GE 1500 - 69
> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
> >> GE 2800 - 65
> >> Viking 5500 - 63
> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
> >> coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
> >> correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
> >> whatsoever.
> >> If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
> >> alone,
> >> you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
> >> barn,
> >> and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
> >> electric
> >> smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
> >> rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS
> >> is
> >> 4th from the bottom.
> >> How can this be?
> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
> >> tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. While
> >> Wolf
> >> and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
> >> they
> >> are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
> >> reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.
> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
> >> creamed
> >> Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
> >> yesterday,
> >> with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
> >> general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
> >> tellling the truth?
> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
> >> tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
> >> Dysons.
> >> It's just amazing.
> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we do
> >> live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
> >> smoke,
> >> and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
> >> Gazelles
> >> for about 1/4 of a century..
> >> --
> >> EA
> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> > with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
> > one else's opinion.
>
> How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
> use it for a couple of months?

> If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about the
> only legit general review institution.

> There are others for specific items,
> like (I think) treadmilldoctor.com for treadmills, proly a few others, but
> even these are drowned in a sea of mis and disinformation.

> Existential Angst wrote:
>> > Existential Angst wrote:
>> >> Awl --
>> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
>> >> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
>> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
>> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
>> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
>> >> GE 1850 - 70
>> >> GE 1500 - 69
>> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
>> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
>> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
>> >> GE 2800 - 65
>> >> Viking 5500 - 63
>> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
>> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
>> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
>> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
>> >> coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
>> >> correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
>> >> whatsoever.
>> >> If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
>> >> alone,
>> >> you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
>> >> barn,
>> >> and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
>> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
>> >> electric
>> >> smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them
>> >> GE,
>> >> rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600
>> >> DCS
>> >> is
>> >> 4th from the bottom.
>> >> How can this be?
>> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
>> >> or
>> >> tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
>> >> While
>> >> Wolf
>> >> and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
>> >> they
>> >> are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
>> >> reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the
>> >> week.
>> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
>> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
>> >> creamed
>> >> Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
>> >> yesterday,
>> >> with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth
>> >> in
>> >> general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who
>> >> is
>> >> tellling the truth?
>> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
>> >> CR's
>> >> tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
>> >> Dysons.
>> >> It's just amazing.
>> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
>> >> do
>> >> live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
>> >> smoke,
>> >> and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
>> >> Gazelles
>> >> for about 1/4 of a century..
>> >> --
>> >> EA
>> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
>> > with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
>> > one else's opinion.
>> How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
>> use it for a couple of months?
> If you have the knowledge to understand what you're looking at and
> evaluate it, you don't need to use it for a couple months to see it's
> shortcomings.

>> If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about
>> the
>> only legit general review institution.
> CR imnsho is anything but legit.

>> There are others for specific items,
>> like (I think) treadmilldoctor.com for treadmills, proly a few others,
>> but
>> even these are drowned in a sea of mis and disinformation.
> You won't drown if you avoid the sea and do your own evaluation.

>
> > Existential Angst wrote:
> >> > Existential Angst wrote:
> >> >> Awl --
> >> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
> >> >> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> >> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> >> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> >> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
> >> >> GE 1850 - 70
> >> >> GE 1500 - 69
> >> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
> >> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
> >> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
> >> >> GE 2800 - 65
> >> >> Viking 5500 - 63
> >> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> >> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
> >> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
> >> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
> >> >> coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
> >> >> correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship
> >> >> whatsoever.
> >> >> If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand
> >> >> alone,
> >> >> you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a
> >> >> barn,
> >> >> and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
> >> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
> >> >> electric
> >> >> smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them
> >> >> GE,
> >> >> rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600
> >> >> DCS
> >> >> is
> >> >> 4th from the bottom.
> >> >> How can this be?
> >> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
> >> >> or
> >> >> tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
> >> >> While
> >> >> Wolf
> >> >> and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe
> >> >> they
> >> >> are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
> >> >> reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the
> >> >> week.
> >> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
> >> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
> >> >> creamed
> >> >> Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them,
> >> >> yesterday,
> >> >> with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth
> >> >> in
> >> >> general is a very real one: HTF can you ever tell what is what, who
> >> >> is
> >> >> tellling the truth?
> >> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
> >> >> CR's
> >> >> tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500
> >> >> Dysons.
> >> >> It's just amazing.
> >> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
> >> >> do
> >> >> live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not to
> >> >> smoke,
> >> >> and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab Isolators and
> >> >> Gazelles
> >> >> for about 1/4 of a century..
> >> >> --
> >> >> EA
> >> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> >> > with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust no
> >> > one else's opinion.
> >> How do you do that with a major appliance, if you can't take one home and
> >> use it for a couple of months?
> > If you have the knowledge to understand what you're looking at and
> > evaluate it, you don't need to use it for a couple months to see it's
> > shortcomings.
>
> How would you do this, say, in the case of a front-loading washing machine?
> How do you evaluate something like this without using it?

> How do you assess
> reliability/repair records?
> Etc.

>
> >> If you can't trust *some* opinion, you've got a tough haul. CR is about
> >> the
> >> only legit general review institution.
> > CR imnsho is anything but legit.
>
> Please elaborate.

> If not CR, anyone else?

>
> Existential Angst wrote:
>>
>> Awl --
>>
>> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
>> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
>>
>> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
>>
>> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
>>
>> Bosch 2,000 - 72
>> GE 1850 - 70
>> GE 1500 - 69
>>
>> So far, so good, right? Heh....
>>
>> Kenmore 3200 - 68
>> Wolf 5200 - 67
>> GE 2800 - 65
>> Viking 5500 - 63
>> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
>> Dacor 6000 - 59
>> KithenAid 3700 - 50
>>
>> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
>> correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which
>> means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
>> relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
>> were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the
>> product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
>> blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
>>
>> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
>> electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many
>> of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the
>> middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.
>>
>> How can this be?
>>
>> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
>> or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
>> While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring
>> system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever,
>> etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly less performance
>> any day of the week.
>>
>> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
>>
>> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
>> creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed
>> them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the
>> problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever
>> tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?
>>
>> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
>> CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms
>> $500 Dysons. It's just amazing.
>>
>> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
>> do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not
>> to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab
>> Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..
>>
>> --
>> EA
>
> The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust
> no one else's opinion.
> and trust
> no one else's opinion.