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Posted by Pete C. on November 12, 2009, 11:32 am
Red Green wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>
>
> > Existential Angst wrote:
> >> Awl --
> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
> >> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
> >> GE 1850 - 70
> >> GE 1500 - 69
> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
> >> GE 2800 - 65
> >> Viking 5500 - 63
> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
> >> correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which
> >> means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
> >> relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
> >> were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the
> >> product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
> >> blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
> >> electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many
> >> of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the
> >> middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.
> >> How can this be?
> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
> >> or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
> >> While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring
> >> system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever,
> >> etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly less performance
> >> any day of the week.
> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
> >> creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed
> >> them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the
> >> problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever
> >> tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?
> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
> >> CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms
> >> $500 Dysons. It's just amazing.
> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
> >> do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not
> >> to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab
> >> Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..
> >> --
> >> EA
> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> > with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust
> > no one else's opinion.
>
> > and trust
> > no one else's opinion.
>
> OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.
I didn't say not to review others opinions, I said not to trust them, in
other words use them to provide clues as to where you may need to
investigate further, do not accept them as fact.
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Posted by Red Green on November 12, 2009, 11:36 am
show/hide quoted text
>
> Red Green wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Existential Angst wrote:
>> >> Awl --
>> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the
>> >> Dec. Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
>> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
>> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
>> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
>> >> GE 1850 - 70
>> >> GE 1500 - 69
>> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
>> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
>> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
>> >> GE 2800 - 65
>> >> Viking 5500 - 63
>> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
>> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
>> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
>> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
>> >> correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph,
>> >> which means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
>> >> relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
>> >> were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste
>> >> the product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
>> >> blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
>> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review
>> >> of electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each --
>> >> many of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near
>> >> the middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.
>> >> How can this be?
>> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test
>> >> stuff, or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree
>> >> with that. While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in
>> >> CR's scoring system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break,
>> >> last forever, etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly
>> >> less performance any day of the week.
>> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
>> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews
>> >> (the creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit,
>> >> creamed them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic
>> >> today), the problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF
>> >> can you ever tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?
>> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE
>> >> in CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly
>> >> outperforms $500 Dysons. It's just amazing.
>> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all,
>> >> we do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling
>> >> us not to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions
>> >> Ab Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..
>> >> --
>> >> EA
>> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm
>> > yourself with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself,
>> > and trust no one else's opinion.
>>
>> > and trust
>> > no one else's opinion.
>>
>> OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.
>
> I didn't say not to review others opinions, I said not to trust them,
> in other words use them to provide clues as to where you may need to
> investigate further, do not accept them as fact.
Sorry Pete. You KF'd :-)
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Posted by Phisherman on November 12, 2009, 9:00 am
On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:19:42 -0500, "Existential Angst"
show/hide quoted text
>Awl --
>Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
>Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
>The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
>For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
>Bosch 2,000 - 72
>GE 1850 - 70
>GE 1500 - 69
>So far, so good, right? Heh....
>Kenmore 3200 - 68
>Wolf 5200 - 67
>GE 2800 - 65
>Viking 5500 - 63
>Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
>Dacor 6000 - 59
>KithenAid 3700 - 50
Did not expect KitchenAid at the bottom of the list. I have a
Whirlpool, works great, 18 years of heavy use and still going strong.
I'm wondering if all these brands are really made by a couple
factories who slap on different brand names. I buy appliances with as
few features as possible--lower cost and usually fewer repairs that
way.
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Posted by Pete C. on November 12, 2009, 11:34 am
Phisherman wrote:
show/hide quoted text
>
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:19:42 -0500, "Existential Angst"
>
> >Awl --
> >Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
> >Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> >The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> >For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> >Bosch 2,000 - 72
> >GE 1850 - 70
> >GE 1500 - 69
> >So far, so good, right? Heh....
> >Kenmore 3200 - 68
> >Wolf 5200 - 67
> >GE 2800 - 65
> >Viking 5500 - 63
> >Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> >Dacor 6000 - 59
> >KithenAid 3700 - 50
>
> Did not expect KitchenAid at the bottom of the list. I have a
> Whirlpool, works great, 18 years of heavy use and still going strong.
> I'm wondering if all these brands are really made by a couple
> factories who slap on different brand names. I buy appliances with as
> few features as possible--lower cost and usually fewer repairs that
> way.
Many of them are produced in the same factories, and the manufacturer's
web sites don't try to hide that fact. Most manufacturer's sites clearly
show their "family of brands" and indeed the fact that products are
produced by the same parent company and in the same factory doesn't mean
that there are not significant differences between their "value" brands
and their "luxury" brands.
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Posted by Cindy Hamilton on November 12, 2009, 10:06 am
wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> Awl --
> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from =A0the Dec.
> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> Bosch =A02,000 - 72
> GE =A01850 - 70
> GE =A01500 - 69
> So far, so good, right? =A0Heh....
> Kenmore =A03200 - 68
> Wolf =A05200 - 67
> GE =A02800 - 65
> Viking =A05500 - 63
> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> Dacor =A06000 - 59
> KithenAid =A03700 - 50
Isn't there some fine print in the article that says something like
"score differences of less than 4 points are meaningless"? IIRC
they usually say something like that next to some sort of
bar graph.
show/hide quoted text
> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a correlation
> coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which means a
> correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no relationship whatsoev=
er.
show/hide quoted text
> If you didn't have objective scoring, and were going by price/brand alone=
> you might as well randomly paste the product sheets on the side of a barn=
> and shoot arrows at them blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
> Wow.... =A0And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of ele=
ctric
show/hide quoted text
> smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many of them GE,
> rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the middle, and $4600 DCS=
is
show/hide quoted text
> 4th from the bottom.
> How can this be?
> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff, or
> tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that. =A0While=
Wolf
show/hide quoted text
> and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring system, mebbe th=
> are built like tanks, never break, last forever, etc. I'll take
> reliability/longevity over slightly less performance any day of the week.
> But then, mebbe not! =A0How do you know???
> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the crea=
med
show/hide quoted text
> Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed them, yesterd=
ay,
show/hide quoted text
> with a continuation of the general topic today), the problem of Truth in
> general is a very real one: =A0HTF can you ever tell what is what, who is
> tellling the truth?
> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in CR's
> tests, from vacuums to cars. =A0A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms $500 Dys=
ons.
show/hide quoted text
> It's just amazing.
Yeah, but that Dyson guy on TV just oozes reliability.
A lot of what CR tests is intended to be marketed to gullible people,
who
really think it's important to have a washer/dryer that matches their
decor.
That sort of crap can really increase the price of an appliance.
"Oooh, washer
A has 5 different cycles, but washer B has 20. B must be better!"
Cindy Hamilton
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>
> > Existential Angst wrote:
> >> Awl --
> >> Rather than a harangue, let me just post some numbers, from the Dec.
> >> Consumer Reports on Ranges I just got.
> >> The first number is the price, the second number is CR's score
> >> For 30" dual fuel (elec/gas),
> >> Bosch 2,000 - 72
> >> GE 1850 - 70
> >> GE 1500 - 69
> >> So far, so good, right? Heh....
> >> Kenmore 3200 - 68
> >> Wolf 5200 - 67
> >> GE 2800 - 65
> >> Viking 5500 - 63
> >> Jenn-Air 2400 - 62
> >> Dacor 6000 - 59
> >> KithenAid 3700 - 50
> >> If you were to graph this and do a linear regression for a
> >> correlation coefficient, you'd wind up with a blob for a graph, which
> >> means a correlation between price and quality of ZERO -- no
> >> relationship whatsoever. If you didn't have objective scoring, and
> >> were going by price/brand alone, you might as well randomly paste the
> >> product sheets on the side of a barn, and shoot arrows at them
> >> blindfolded, and buy whatever your arrow hit.
> >> Wow.... And this zero correlation occurs in their longer review of
> >> electric smoothtops and gas ranges, of over 30 products each -- many
> >> of them GE, rated best buys, while $5,000 thermador is near the
> >> middle, and $4600 DCS is 4th from the bottom.
> >> How can this be?
> >> Well, some would argue that CR doesn't really know how to test stuff,
> >> or tests it peculiarly, and I would not totally disagree with that.
> >> While Wolf and Viking may have not have scored well in CR's scoring
> >> system, mebbe they are built like tanks, never break, last forever,
> >> etc. I'll take reliability/longevity over slightly less performance
> >> any day of the week.
> >> But then, mebbe not! How do you know???
> >> Apropos of Fox5's li'l bullshit expose on bogus on-line reviews (the
> >> creamed Lifestyle Lifts, the retail plastic surgery outfit, creamed
> >> them, yesterday, with a continuation of the general topic today), the
> >> problem of Truth in general is a very real one: HTF can you ever
> >> tell what is what, who is tellling the truth?
> >> This zero-correlation between price and score is almost the RULE in
> >> CR's tests, from vacuums to cars. A $100 Hoover vastly outperforms
> >> $500 Dysons. It's just amazing.
> >> But, I shouldn't really be too frazzled or confounded. After all, we
> >> do live in a BizarroLand country where Big Tobaccer is telling us not
> >> to smoke, and where a fat abless Tony Little sold millions Ab
> >> Isolators and Gazelles for about 1/4 of a century..
> >> --
> >> EA
> > The simple truth has always been - Knowledge is Power - Arm yourself
> > with the knowledge to properly evaluate products yourself, and trust
> > no one else's opinion.
>
> > and trust
> > no one else's opinion.
>
> OK, I'm gonna killfile everyone.