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Fireplace insert- 4 questions Keith 10-15-2006
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Posted by Keith on October 15, 2006, 10:12 am


I live in a house built in 1870, and there is an old, very small, non-
functional fireplace. One of the previous owners actually had the top of
the chimney removed down into the attic when re-roofing, so I have a brick
stub sticking up in a low attic.

I have been looking at standalone pellet stoves, but I just saw a wood-
burning fireplace insert that looks like it might come close to fitting in
the existing firebox. (an inch or two in the back corners might not fit,
because the insert is square and the fireplace is angled). There was no
manual available at the store, just the floor model (apparently someone
stole the manual).

I've done light construction, as well as electrical and plumbing, so I am
fairly handy- but I haven't done anything HVAC before, and I'm thinking
about talking to (hiring) a contractor to make sure I don't cause any
hazards related to heat/fire or exhaust/carbon monoxide. Even before I do
that, I figured I should learn enough to make sure I know what the
contractor is doing- and who knows, if it is easy, the option is still open
to DIY.

As an aside, the insert uses an electric blower (which is great) but I want
to make sure that my install will be safe even if the power goes out (in
which case I'm assuming that the insert and chimney would be hotter, since
the blower wouldn't be discharging the heat into the room).


Here are my questions:

1. In a house/fireplace this old, is an insert even an option? The
fireplace /appears/ to be lined with firebrick, but it is hard to tell with
all the old soot and age. I don't know what assumptions the manufacturers
make about the fireplaces their products will be used in.

2. The house is a tall 2-story (12 foot ceilings on both floors, plus the
attic, so maybe 30 feet to the roof?)- is there any problem running an
insert's exhaust that high? I wouldn't think so, but it is worth asking.

3. There isn't any access (and I'd be worried about the weight) to put a
new concrete liner in the chimney. I was thinking of running metal exhaust
tubing straight down to the connect, but leaving the space between the
exhaust and the existing chimney empty. the brick would still end in the
basement, with the metal exhaust continuing up through the roof. Is that an
acceptable approach, assuming it isn't against code?

4. Given the size of the existing fireplace, there really wouldn't be room
to put a hand around the insert to attach the exhaust (the exhaust on the
back of the unit I saw came out at a 45 degree angle, so I'd have to put on
a 45 degree angle adapter to send it straight up). How does one make sure
there is a good seal on the exhaust, when there isn't any room to manually
attach it?


I appreciate anyone's expertise and contributions, and hopefully I'll have
an auxillary source of warmth this winter.

Thanks,
Keith

Posted by Harry K on October 15, 2006, 10:39 am



Keith wrote:
> I live in a house built in 1870, and there is an old, very small, non-
> functional fireplace. One of the previous owners actually had the top of
> the chimney removed down into the attic when re-roofing, so I have a brick
> stub sticking up in a low attic.
>
> I have been looking at standalone pellet stoves, but I just saw a wood-
> burning fireplace insert that looks like it might come close to fitting in
> the existing firebox. (an inch or two in the back corners might not fit,
> because the insert is square and the fireplace is angled). There was no
> manual available at the store, just the floor model (apparently someone
> stole the manual).
>
> I've done light construction, as well as electrical and plumbing, so I am
> fairly handy- but I haven't done anything HVAC before, and I'm thinking
> about talking to (hiring) a contractor to make sure I don't cause any
> hazards related to heat/fire or exhaust/carbon monoxide. Even before I do
> that, I figured I should learn enough to make sure I know what the
> contractor is doing- and who knows, if it is easy, the option is still open
> to DIY.
>
> As an aside, the insert uses an electric blower (which is great) but I want
> to make sure that my install will be safe even if the power goes out (in
> which case I'm assuming that the insert and chimney would be hotter, since
> the blower wouldn't be discharging the heat into the room).
>
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. In a house/fireplace this old, is an insert even an option? The
> fireplace /appears/ to be lined with firebrick, but it is hard to tell with
> all the old soot and age. I don't know what assumptions the manufacturers
> make about the fireplaces their products will be used in.
>
> 2. The house is a tall 2-story (12 foot ceilings on both floors, plus the
> attic, so maybe 30 feet to the roof?)- is there any problem running an
> insert's exhaust that high? I wouldn't think so, but it is worth asking.
>
> 3. There isn't any access (and I'd be worried about the weight) to put a
> new concrete liner in the chimney. I was thinking of running metal exhaust
> tubing straight down to the connect, but leaving the space between the
> exhaust and the existing chimney empty. the brick would still end in the
> basement, with the metal exhaust continuing up through the roof. Is that an
> acceptable approach, assuming it isn't against code?
>
> 4. Given the size of the existing fireplace, there really wouldn't be room
> to put a hand around the insert to attach the exhaust (the exhaust on the
> back of the unit I saw came out at a 45 degree angle, so I'd have to put on
> a 45 degree angle adapter to send it straight up). How does one make sure
> there is a good seal on the exhaust, when there isn't any room to manually
> attach it?
>
>
> I appreciate anyone's expertise and contributions, and hopefully I'll have
> an auxillary source of warmth this winter.
>
> Thanks,
> Keith

Your entire project depends on fixing the chimney. You cannot, even in
your dreams, use it without putting a liner in. That is going to run
big bucks, as in major sticker shock, with that tall of a chimney.

As for the electric fan - try it out in the store. Some of those make
so much noise you won't ever use it.

Harry K


Posted by on October 15, 2006, 11:18 am



Keith wrote:
> I live in a house built in 1870, and there is an old, very small, non-
> functional fireplace. One of the previous owners actually had the top of
> the chimney removed down into the attic when re-roofing, so I have a brick
> stub sticking up in a low attic.
>
> I have been looking at standalone pellet stoves, but I just saw a wood-
> burning fireplace insert that looks like it might come close to fitting in
> the existing firebox. (an inch or two in the back corners might not fit,
> because the insert is square and the fireplace is angled). There was no
> manual available at the store, just the floor model (apparently someone
> stole the manual).
>
> I've done light construction, as well as electrical and plumbing, so I am
> fairly handy- but I haven't done anything HVAC before, and I'm thinking
> about talking to (hiring) a contractor to make sure I don't cause any
> hazards related to heat/fire or exhaust/carbon monoxide. Even before I do
> that, I figured I should learn enough to make sure I know what the
> contractor is doing- and who knows, if it is easy, the option is still open
> to DIY.
>
> As an aside, the insert uses an electric blower (which is great) but I want
> to make sure that my install will be safe even if the power goes out (in
> which case I'm assuming that the insert and chimney would be hotter, since
> the blower wouldn't be discharging the heat into the room).
>
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. In a house/fireplace this old, is an insert even an option? The
> fireplace /appears/ to be lined with firebrick, but it is hard to tell with
> all the old soot and age. I don't know what assumptions the manufacturers
> make about the fireplaces their products will be used in.

When I installed mine I removed the brick fire box. My old fireplace
was what we call around here a english coal burning fireplace. It was
required to make it fit and abide by the required clearances. My unit
is a Pacific Energy model.
>
> 2. The house is a tall 2-story (12 foot ceilings on both floors, plus the
> attic, so maybe 30 feet to the roof?)- is there any problem running an
> insert's exhaust that high? I wouldn't think so, but it is worth asking.

I ran mine through the chimney (new stainless liner up through). As
long as the pipe size is what the burning unit calls for. Friend of
mine ran one inside but gave up a fair bit of closet space in the
install.
>
> 3. There isn't any access (and I'd be worried about the weight) to put a
> new concrete liner in the chimney. I was thinking of running metal exhaust
> tubing straight down to the connect, but leaving the space between the
> exhaust and the existing chimney empty. the brick would still end in the
> basement, with the metal exhaust continuing up through the roof. Is that an
> acceptable approach, assuming it isn't against code?

Yes. Again, what the manufacturer of the unit describes. Once the
stainless liner is installed a cap covers the top of the chimmney
>
> 4. Given the size of the existing fireplace, there really wouldn't be room
> to put a hand around the insert to attach the exhaust (the exhaust on the
> back of the unit I saw came out at a 45 degree angle, so I'd have to put on
> a 45 degree angle adapter to send it straight up). How does one make sure
> there is a good seal on the exhaust, when there isn't any room to manually
> attach it?

I had to cut out a section of tiles above the unit in my fireplace to
access the pipe. I then had a piece made up to match the surround that
came with the unit. You need to be able to acces this - unlike a
propane insert the liner for this unit is ridgid.
>
>
> I appreciate anyone's expertise and contributions, and hopefully I'll have
> an auxillary source of warmth this winter.

My brother - in - law is a certified installer. A good friend is a fire
inspector. They cecked my progress as I went, I took lots of photos.
Not only for your safety and that of your homes (insurance) around here
the insurance company requires both a signed paper from a certified
installer (brother in law) and the insurance doccument signed by the
regional fire inspector (friend). Be careful if this is a DIY. On a
side note my neighbour was so impressed with the insert he got one too
- he had it installed (prep work as well) for around $400.00.

Good luck.

> Thanks,
> Keith


Posted by Don Phillipson on October 15, 2006, 1:42 pm



> Here are my questions:
>
> 1. In a house/fireplace this old, is an insert even an option?

Anything is an "option." Your concerns are:
(a) is it affordable?
(b) is it legal (safe under the building code.)

> 2. The house is a tall 2-story (12 foot ceilings on both floors, plus the
> attic, so maybe 30 feet to the roof?)- is there any problem running an
> insert's exhaust that high? I wouldn't think so, but it is worth asking.

This is a building code question. The city hall
office that issues building permits can answer it.
(Be warned: if you want your own copy of the 75-page fire
code in my jurisdiction, it costs about $75.)

> 3. There isn't any access (and I'd be worried about the weight) to put a
> new concrete liner in the chimney. I was thinking of running metal exhaust
> tubing straight down to the connect, but leaving the space between the
> exhaust and the existing chimney empty. the brick would still end in the
> basement, with the metal exhaust continuing up through the roof. Is that
an
> acceptable approach, assuming it isn't against code?

It is more important to find out whether it conforms
to code than whether an engineer judges it would
fall down because too heavy. In most jurisdictions
non-code new installations annul your fire insurance,
and in many city hall can order compliance with code.

> 4. Given the size of the existing fireplace, there really wouldn't be room
> to put a hand around the insert to attach the exhaust (the exhaust on the
> back of the unit I saw came out at a 45 degree angle, so I'd have to put
on
> a 45 degree angle adapter to send it straight up). How does one make sure
> there is a good seal on the exhaust, when there isn't any room to manually
> attach it?

This is a question for (licensed) installers.

> I appreciate anyone's expertise and contributions, and hopefully I'll have
> an auxillary source of warmth this winter.

You propose here steel and brick work to instal a
new chimney for auxiliary heat as distinct from
main or cenntral winter heat. Most householders would not
think this an economic expense.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)



Posted by German Jerry on October 16, 2006, 1:25 pm


Im thinking the chimney on top of the roof its the major issue then the
cost of the stainless liner for the chimney. You could get a quote if
you want but I dont know a guy who would touch it with a clear
concience. And you could be looking at a $5K project if you did find
one. You gotta save a lot of heat to justify that plus the stove. And
the guy that owned the place before you may have some hidden insight
why he did a permanent end to the chimney.

My recommendation is plug the fireplace nice and tight with a chimney
balloon low down by the damper or just above the firebox, so you dont
loose heat up the chimney. Then put in there a nice candelabra or
decorative birch log stack and just enjoy it as an interior design
piece. IT would be an uphill climb to resore it back to life again.


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