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Posted by bent on November 12, 2007, 11:08 am
I traced the cabling back into the fuse box. This receptacle box (the one I
want to change the broken plastic on) has two lines coming into/ going out
of it: a 14/3 (black/white/red, + gnd) going back to the fuse box, and a
14/2 (black/white, + gnd) going to a single under the counter type ~20W
fluorecent light with a little on/off button. So for a simple plug ( a 5W
clock radio), and a simple light it has some pretty specail wiring, and
probably a waste since it is an original fusebox short on spots (none left).
Anyways, ok, maybe it was a special place before the kitchen remodel.
The 14/3 cable going back to the fuse box has a white, a red, a black, and
the bare copper ground wire. The red is connected to the fuse on the right,
and the black is connected to the fuse on the left, of a double fuse holder.
You must remove both the fuses to re and re just one. I am just assuming
the white and gnd are wired into the fuse box as they normally would be, but
I haven't traced them. Don't start with 220!!
The first/only time I tried wiring the new plastic receptacle in I had the
wires wrong and vaporized the fuse. I believe it was the fuse on the left
(the black wire) , if it matters. Also, due to my current IE settings I do
not have access to my original post if any of that matters. I can.
So I broke the connector on the hot (brass) side of the new receptacle, as
it was broken (on the same side) of the original receptacle. The original
receptacle had the push in type of wire connector on the back of it (4
push-in locations in total in the 4 corners on the rear of the receptacle).
The new replacement receptacle doesn't have push-ins on the back. So where
does that wire go? It was black. there was only one wire pushed in to any
connector on the back and it was black (I'm very sure, of both, 1 and black,
I think) I don't know which black wire it was, but it doesn't matter,
right.
So:
Bare ground to bare ground to bottom ground screw of the receptacle. The
two are to the rear of the box, and another single wire to the receptacle
screw)
White wire to white wire on the silver coloured/unbroken side of the new
receptacle. So they become connected, as are the grounds.
Q>
Red wire from fuse box to where?
Black wire (from the fuse box) to where.
Black wire (to supply power to the single, 20W F. light) to where?
All I can assume is that the black and red hot wires from the fuse box are
on opposite sides of the broken tab. I do not know if it matter which
(black/red hot supply) wire goes where (top or bottom of broken tab), and I
do not know if it matters where the black (hot) wire to the light goes.
(with the black or red wires of the hot fuse box supply), or to the top or
bottom of the tab, or which combination, if any is important)
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Posted by Rich256 on November 12, 2007, 11:31 am
> I haven't traced them. Don't start with 220!!
Why do you say that? Sure sounds like a 220 circuit. Black is one
phase and red is the other.
Do you have a meter to measure the voltage? Measure between black and
red at the fuse.
So on your outlet use black or red. Or assuming 220, if you break
the tab and use both you have a different phase on top and bottom.
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Posted by Wayne Whitney on November 12, 2007, 1:22 pm
> I traced the cabling back into the fuse box. This receptacle box
> (the one I want to change the broken plastic on) has two lines
> coming into/ going out of it: a 14/3 (black/white/red, + gnd) going
> back to the fuse box, and a 14/2 (black/white, + gnd) going to a
> single under the counter type ~20W fluorecent light with a little
> on/off button.
>
> [. . .]
>
> So: Bare ground to bare ground to bottom ground screw of the
> receptacle. The two are to the rear of the box, and another single
> wire to the receptacle screw. White wire to white wire on the
> silver coloured/unbroken side of the new receptacle. So they become
> connected, as are the grounds.
>
> Red wire from fuse box to where?
> Black wire (from the fuse box) to where?
> Black wire (to supply power to the single, 20W F. light) to where?
First, if you have fully traced the circuit and know all the loads on
it, you can wire the circuit any way that does what you want and is
code compliant.
Now we can say with fair certainty how the original circuit was wired:
red and black wires from the fuse box to opposite hot sides of the
receptacle (with the connector tab broken), black wire to the light
connected to one side of the receptacle (either side, doesn't matter).
Unfortunately this is not a code compliant way to wire the circuit
now. Two problems:
If you have a multi-wire branch circuit (two opposite hot phases each
serving 120V loads with a common neutral), then the connectivitiy of
the neutral can not depend on the device being installed. This just
means you have to take the two neutrals and pigtail them to a short
piece of wire that is then connected to the receptacle.
If you have a multi-wire branch circuit, then when there are any
devices that are connected to both phases (like your split
receptacle), the circuit needs to be opened by a single overcurrent
device.
For this second requirement, if the circuit is protected by circuit
breakers, this means that a handle tie is required so that both
circuit breakers open at once. I don't know how this requirement is
applied to fuses: my instinct would be that you can't use two separate
fuses, so you simply can't wire a split receptacle at all. Perhaps
someone more experienced than I am can comment.
As to what to do to comply with the second requirement, more
information about the receptacle is required. Where is it located?
Do you need the extra capacity that the split receptacle requires, or
will the total current draw at the receptacle be less than the 15 amps
the 14 gauge wire can provide?
Cheers, Wayne
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Posted by bent on November 12, 2007, 3:36 pm
whatb I have learned and where I could go with this: i guess whats going on
is the top plug is dependant on one fuse, and the bottom plug is dependant
on the other fuse. And the light would also be connected to just one of
those hot supplies, and its fuse. Wrt the code, the outright safety, and my
physical wiring, I will want to do what apparently looks correct (for sight
inspection purposes), and is safe, then easiest. The two whites, since
connected together, you say I need to attach a short third wire into a
marrett then to just one of the screws. Sort of like the ground is. Easy
enough . Or is it good to just attach each white one to each of the two
screws? i.e. Are you suggesting I do that with the black from the light and
either red or black from the fusebox. I cannot fully understand what you're
saying. Whatever I do I want to to be as safe as before first. Not crazy
safe. Not necc even code safe. safe. And wrt whats going on further, i
don't understand you yet; thats me.
I'm in Toronto, ON, CA. Seperate residential home. Before the F light,
this location may have been for fridge; or another main kitchen power
supply, but now its just is just a single 20W Flourescent light mounted
under the kitchen cabinets, nothing else to it. The plug top or bottom is
only permanently connected to a clock radio. Its above the countertop, so
30" + 8" from the floor. Maybe a mixer on occasion, or just to check
something is working. Its at the front exit doorway (without door). The F
light is directly above the plug (a foot offset to the right) and about a
foot higher than the plug, and there is 3 or 5 feet between the two, and the
only (double) std. kitchen sink, a litle lower farther to the smae right,
and none else for 30 feet. There is a dishwasher directly below the counter
centered about where the F light is, but on a different circuit. The fridge
is directly opposite. Everything is std, furhter. Any more needed?
To be honest, I may need an ok like "you're at least safe enough" for the
wiring I chooses, cuz you've lost me, and I may not need be so tickedy-boo
about pigtailing, etc. If I think wrapping two solid 14 ga wires around the
same receptacle screw is safe enough (because of proximity to sides of steel
box when installed, unless otherwise obviously visually code wrong, or
unsafe, I'm willing to do it.
What about: (wrt safety at least, if I put it all together like this):
black (from fusebox fuse A) and black (from F light) to the top screw
(broken hot tab)
red (from fusebox fuse B) to the bottom screw (broken hot tab)
white (either to fuse box or F light) to one steel screw (intact tab)
other (other either to fuse box or F light) white to other steel screw
(intact tab)
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Posted by Wayne Whitney on November 12, 2007, 4:29 pm
> Unfortunately this is not a code compliant way to wire the circuit
> now. Two problems:
I should be more specific: the problems I pointed out are violations
of the US NEC. I'm not familiar with the Canadian code, the CEC, so I
can't say what it requires.
Cheers, Wayne
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