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French Drain through Load Bearing Wall? Gritz_1 03-30-2008
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Posted by Paul Oman on April 3, 2008, 12:25 pm


















Norminn wrote:
> clipped
>
>> Yes, tough to explain without picticures!
>> Where the water problem occurs is at the back of the house/garage. We
>> sit on a hill. The entire property slopes
>> down to the street. The garage is on a slab 8" below the slab that
>> leads to house. No problem with water on that
>> level. The garage has a slight slope that tilts toward the the back of
>> the house, not towards the garage doors.
>> You are not missing anything. Drain across the back wall is
>> absolutetly correct. The load bearing wall I mentiond intersects the
>> back wall.
>> What the contractors all said, (in unison, I might add)is that the
>> other walls need drains as well.
>> If you were looking from above, left wall is an outside wall, so that
>> would kind of make sense to me.
>> The one contarctor, as I mentioed, just said, do the ouside wall, back
>> wall, and 5' up the inside wall.
>> Are you saying the back wall drain wouldbe sufficient? It's really not
>> a a lot of water that we get, and it's sporadic at best.
>>
>>
> No......I don't know enough to tell you what is right or wrong. My
> thought is this: the problem is
> with heavy rain and is sporadic. That suggests to me that the slope is
> bad and you are getting runoff.
> not groundwater. If that is the case, then stopping or diverting the
> water so it runs away from the garage
> might cure the problem and, at worst, just require a french drain across
> back of garage to........? In conjunction
> with that, a little grading and/or addition of soil across the back to
> minimize what reaches the area in back
> of the garage..
>
>
>> The "6" walls come from doing the left, back in garage 1, up the
>> center (LB wall), down the LB wall, back in garage 2 and 5' of the
>> inside wall!
>> Thanks for the input.
>>
>>
> Sounds like something that looks great on paper :o) Where is the water
> supposed to wind after
> it is collected?

--------------------

Being in the epoxy coating business, I might suggest sealing and
waterproofing the wall with epoxy paints. Outside would be best
the could also be done coating the inside of the wall.

very similar to coating sewer manholes - they get coated inside
because you don't want groundwater/surface water entering the
manhole and 'overflowing' the system.

paul oman

Posted by aemeijers on March 30, 2008, 4:07 pm
Gritz_1 wrote:
> We have a bi-level home on a hill; recently the garage, which is about
> 6' under ground, has been taking on water after a heavy storm. The
> house is on a slope, and we know that hydrostatic pressure is the
> culprit. We asked 4 contractors for ideas/bids and all suggested a
> French drain-sump pump set-up, which seems like the correct way to go.
> The sticking point is this; the garage is a 2 car, divided by a
> cinderblock, load bearing wall. One contractor says he can just go
> through that wall, and around the perimeter of the garage. This makes
> the job much less expensive, instead of going around 6 walls with the
> drain, he is going around 3, so the linear footage is much smaller. He
> says, the hole that would be cut through the load bearing wall is
> insignificant, and will be recemented anyway. I tend to agree with
> him after thinking about it, but I do not want to wake up with a
> collapsed/cracked wall one day! I would love to hear everyone's
> opnions.
My opinion is to regrade the back yard, and put in a swale to redirect
the water around the garage. If that isn't enough, bite the bullet, and
dig out the backfill on the outside of those 2 sides, and put in a
proper foundation drain, with proper gravel and whatever above. While
the trench is open, replace the waterproofing on the outside of the
wall. Interior french drains are a second-best solution in a basement,
where the floor gets almost no load. But putting them in a garage,
thereby breaking the link to where the slab sits on the footer, seems to
be asking for trouble. Not to mention, how warm does the garage stay?
Ever get cold by where the big doors open?

IMHO, water should be redirected or stopped outside the basement wall.

(Yes, I just had a site survey from a 'reputable' basement waterproofing
company, and even after I told him I grew up in the business and knew
better, he still tried to sell me snake oil. As he was packing up, he
even tried to offer me a discount if I would sign a contract and give
him a check right then.)

But having said all that- no, a small hole in the bottom corner of the
dividing wall, to tuck a tile under there, won't seriously affect the
load-bearing capacity. I assume you have a door through the wall
already? Just stay away from right under the door frame.

--
aem sends...

Posted by John on March 30, 2008, 11:16 pm
> Gritz_1 wrote:
>> We have a bi-level home on a hill; recently the garage, which is about
>> 6' under ground, has been taking on water after a heavy storm. The
>> house is on a slope, and we know that hydrostatic pressure is the
>> culprit. We asked 4 contractors for ideas/bids and all suggested a
>> French drain-sump pump set-up, which seems like the correct way to go.
>> The sticking point is this; the garage is a 2 car, divided by a
>> cinderblock, load bearing wall. One contractor says he can just go
>> through that wall, and around the perimeter of the garage. This makes
>> the job much less expensive, instead of going around 6 walls with the
>> drain, he is going around 3, so the linear footage is much smaller. He
>> says, the hole that would be cut through the load bearing wall is
>> insignificant, and will be recemented anyway. I tend to agree with
>> him after thinking about it, but I do not want to wake up with a
>> collapsed/cracked wall one day! I would love to hear everyone's
>> opnions.
> My opinion is to regrade the back yard, and put in a swale to redirect the
> water around the garage. If that isn't enough, bite the bullet, and dig
> out the backfill on the outside of those 2 sides, and put in a proper
> foundation drain, with proper gravel and whatever above. While the trench
> is open, replace the waterproofing on the outside of the wall. Interior
> french drains are a second-best solution in a basement, where the floor
> gets almost no load. But putting them in a garage, thereby breaking the
> link to where the slab sits on the footer, seems to be asking for trouble.
> Not to mention, how warm does the garage stay? Ever get cold by where the
> big doors open?
>
> IMHO, water should be redirected or stopped outside the basement wall.
>
> (Yes, I just had a site survey from a 'reputable' basement waterproofing
> company, and even after I told him I grew up in the business and knew
> better, he still tried to sell me snake oil. As he was packing up, he even
> tried to offer me a discount if I would sign a contract and give him a
> check right then.)
>
> But having said all that- no, a small hole in the bottom corner of the
> dividing wall, to tuck a tile under there, won't seriously affect the
> load-bearing capacity. I assume you have a door through the wall already?
> Just stay away from right under the door frame.
>
> --
> aem sends...


From one who has gone through the drain problem from you know where, may I
say that your suggestions are the first ones that make any sense.

Gritz has tried to describe his problem, but it is a bit difficult to do so.
And I can understand that.

Your comment about french drain people selling snake oil is absolutely
right. They wanted to do that on my property for $1-2000. The last owner
sold rather than deal with it. I decided to do it myself. I found my
problem was caused by construction fill of a deep ditch between my house and
the neighbors; the street slopes downward toward me and the lawns are even
with the curb. As I said, apparently before the houses were finished there
was a big ditch there until they filled it in. The problem was that they
used construction sand: very porous.

After digging it all out, I could see that the groundwater would go six feet
under the surface, then under my crawl space, which was like a swamp. The
french drain guys wanted all that money to dig a 24" french drain. A lot of
good that would do!

Like your suggestion, I dug out around the house. The crawl space had been
filled in with concrete block some years ago, but it wasn't sealed very
good. I sealed and waterproofed it, then put a border of 4mil vinyl
sheeting on it before I filled it in.

Where the snake oil guys would have put a 24" french drain, I dug a
50'X2'X6' deep trench, put a 4" socked slotted pipe at the bottom, then a
sheet of 4mil vinyl along the side of the trench. The pipe went around the
house to the lower side, where I got permission from the city to put a drain
in the curb. I tied my gutter drains and a basement drain into it.

This drastic fix works. We've had less than moderate rains so far this
spring and haven't had any for nearly a week, but that drain that comes out
of my curb is still running down the street today. It shows no sign of
stopping.

They would have put in the french drain and missed all that water!

Oh, by the way, that crawl space is dry as a bone, even in rainy weather.
The partial basement, which used to be slimy, is now dry as a bone.


Posted by hallerb@aol.com on March 31, 2008, 8:22 am
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Gritz_1 wrote:
> >> We have a bi-level home on a hill; recently the garage, which is about
> >> 6' under ground, has been taking on water after a heavy storm. The
> >> house is on a slope, and we know that hydrostatic pressure is the
> >> culprit. We asked 4 contractors for ideas/bids and all suggested a
> >> French drain-sump pump set-up, which seems like the correct way to go.
> >> The sticking point is this; the garage is a 2 car, divided by a
> >> cinderblock, load bearing wall. One contractor says he can just go
> >> through that wall, and around the perimeter of the garage. This makes
> >> the job much less expensive, instead of going around 6 walls with the
> >> drain, he is going around 3, so the linear footage is much smaller. He
> >> says, the hole that would be cut through the load bearing wall is
> >> insignificant, and will be recemented anyway. =EF=BF=BDI tend to agree =
with
> >> him after thinking about it, but I do not want to wake up with a
> >> collapsed/cracked wall one day! I would love to hear everyone's
> >> opnions.
> > My opinion is to regrade the back yard, and put in a swale to redirect t=
he
> > water around the garage. If that isn't enough, bite the bullet, and dig
> > out the backfill on the outside of those 2 sides, and put in a proper
> > foundation drain, with proper gravel and whatever above. While the trenc=
h
> > is open, replace the waterproofing on the outside of the wall. Interior
> > french drains are a second-best solution in a basement, where the floor
> > gets almost no load. But putting them in a garage, thereby breaking the
> > link to where the slab sits on the footer, seems to be asking for troubl=
e.
> > Not to mention, how warm does the garage stay? Ever get cold by where th=
e
> > big doors open?
>
> > IMHO, water should be redirected or stopped outside the basement wall.
>
> > (Yes, I just had a site survey from a 'reputable' basement waterproofing=

> > company, and even after I told him I grew up in the business and knew
> > better, he still tried to sell me snake oil. As he was packing up, he ev=
en
> > tried to offer me a discount if I would sign a contract and give him a
> > check right then.)
>
> > But having said all that- no, a small hole in the bottom corner of the
> > dividing wall, to tuck a tile under there, won't seriously affect the
> > load-bearing capacity. I assume you have a door through the wall already=
?
> > Just stay away from right under the door frame.
>
> > --
> > aem sends...
>
> From one who has gone through the drain problem from you know where, may I=

> say that your suggestions are the first ones that make any sense.
>
> Gritz has tried to describe his problem, but it is a bit difficult to do s=
o.
> And I can understand that.
>
> Your comment about french drain people selling snake oil is absolutely
> right. =EF=BF=BDThey wanted to do that on my property for $1-2000. =EF=BF=
=BDThe last owner
> sold rather than deal with it. =EF=BF=BDI decided to do it myself. =EF=BF=
=BDI found my
> problem was caused by construction fill of a deep ditch between my house a=
nd
> the neighbors; the street slopes downward toward me and the lawns are even=

> with the curb. =EF=BF=BDAs I said, apparently before the houses were finis=
hed there
> was a big ditch there until they filled it in. =EF=BF=BDThe problem was th=
at they
> used construction sand: =EF=BF=BDvery porous.
>
> After digging it all out, I could see that the groundwater would go six fe=
et
> under the surface, then under my crawl space, which was like a swamp. =EF=
=BF=BDThe
> french drain guys wanted all that money to dig a 24" french drain. =EF=BF=
=BDA lot of
> good that would do!
>
> Like your suggestion, I dug out around the house. =EF=BF=BDThe crawl space=
had been
> filled in with concrete block some years ago, but it wasn't sealed very
> good. =EF=BF=BDI sealed and waterproofed it, then put a border of 4mil vin=
yl
> sheeting on it before I filled it in.
>
> Where the snake oil guys would have put a 24" french drain, I dug a
> 50'X2'X6' deep trench, put a 4" socked slotted pipe at the bottom, then a
> sheet of 4mil vinyl along the side of the trench. =EF=BF=BDThe pipe went a=
round the
> house to the lower side, where I got permission from the city to put a dra=
in
> in the curb. =EF=BF=BDI tied my gutter drains and a basement drain into it=
.
>
> This drastic fix works. =EF=BF=BDWe've had less than moderate rains so far=
this
> spring and haven't had any for nearly a week, but that drain that comes ou=
t
> of my curb is still running down the street today. =EF=BF=BDIt shows no si=
gn of
> stopping.
>
> They would have put in the french drain and missed all that water!
>
> Oh, by the way, that crawl space is dry as a bone, even in rainy weather.
> The partial basement, which used to be slimy, is now dry as a bone.- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am the other half of your success...................... failure.

heres what we tried.......

had foundation mostly dug out to footer level, found old drain line
clogged completely, water proffed walls, installed new drain line, and
many tons of gravel since we had to remove all the sidewalks and steps
that suurrounded a good bit of the home. then regraded entire yard,
installed new downspout drains going to street and daylight, replaced
entire yard........

If it hadnt been DIY it would of likely cost 20 grand...........

guess what?:(

Well the water no longer bothered the walls but still came up thru
floor with every heavy rain........

had interior french drain installed, that fixed it finally............

conclusions exterior work costs a fortune and may not be
effective........

the costs for backhoe, gravel, dump truck to haul away excess dirt the
gravel replaced, rebuilding lawn, tons of hard labor,new sidewalks and
steps, well it all looked nice and gave the home curp appeal, we sold
it some years later.

but the interior drain worked better and only cost 3 grand.

sometimes water table actually rises and all that exterior work is a
grand waste of time and money/

smart builders install interior french drains in new homes, today its
frequently a building code requirement

Posted by Banty on March 31, 2008, 8:33 am
hallerb@aol.com says...
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Gritz_1 wrote:
>> >> We have a bi-level home on a hill; recently the garage, which is about
>> >> 6' under ground, has been taking on water after a heavy storm. The
>> >> house is on a slope, and we know that hydrostatic pressure is the
>> >> culprit. We asked 4 contractors for ideas/bids and all suggested a
>> >> French drain-sump pump set-up, which seems like the correct way to go.
>> >> The sticking point is this; the garage is a 2 car, divided by a
>> >> cinderblock, load bearing wall. One contractor says he can just go
>> >> through that wall, and around the perimeter of the garage. This makes
>> >> the job much less expensive, instead of going around 6 walls with the
>> >> drain, he is going around 3, so the linear footage is much smaller. He
>> >> says, the hole that would be cut through the load bearing wall is
>> >> insignificant, and will be recemented anyway. =EF=BF=BDI tend to agree =
>with
>> >> him after thinking about it, but I do not want to wake up with a
>> >> collapsed/cracked wall one day! I would love to hear everyone's
>> >> opnions.
>> > My opinion is to regrade the back yard, and put in a swale to redirect t=
>he
>> > water around the garage. If that isn't enough, bite the bullet, and dig
>> > out the backfill on the outside of those 2 sides, and put in a proper
>> > foundation drain, with proper gravel and whatever above. While the trenc=
>h
>> > is open, replace the waterproofing on the outside of the wall. Interior
>> > french drains are a second-best solution in a basement, where the floor
>> > gets almost no load. But putting them in a garage, thereby breaking the
>> > link to where the slab sits on the footer, seems to be asking for troubl=
>e.
>> > Not to mention, how warm does the garage stay? Ever get cold by where th=
>e
>> > big doors open?
>>
>> > IMHO, water should be redirected or stopped outside the basement wall.
>>
>> > (Yes, I just had a site survey from a 'reputable' basement waterproofing=
>
>> > company, and even after I told him I grew up in the business and knew
>> > better, he still tried to sell me snake oil. As he was packing up, he ev=
>en
>> > tried to offer me a discount if I would sign a contract and give him a
>> > check right then.)
>>
>> > But having said all that- no, a small hole in the bottom corner of the
>> > dividing wall, to tuck a tile under there, won't seriously affect the
>> > load-bearing capacity. I assume you have a door through the wall already=
>?
>> > Just stay away from right under the door frame.
>>
>> > --
>> > aem sends...
>>
>> From one who has gone through the drain problem from you know where, may I=
>
>> say that your suggestions are the first ones that make any sense.
>>
>> Gritz has tried to describe his problem, but it is a bit difficult to do s=
>o.
>> And I can understand that.
>>
>> Your comment about french drain people selling snake oil is absolutely
>> right. =EF=BF=BDThey wanted to do that on my property for $1-2000. =EF=BF=
>=BDThe last owner
>> sold rather than deal with it. =EF=BF=BDI decided to do it myself. =EF=BF=
>=BDI found my
>> problem was caused by construction fill of a deep ditch between my house a=
>nd
>> the neighbors; the street slopes downward toward me and the lawns are even=
>
>> with the curb. =EF=BF=BDAs I said, apparently before the houses were finis=
>hed there
>> was a big ditch there until they filled it in. =EF=BF=BDThe problem was th=
>at they
>> used construction sand: =EF=BF=BDvery porous.
>>
>> After digging it all out, I could see that the groundwater would go six fe=
>et
>> under the surface, then under my crawl space, which was like a swamp. =EF=
>=BF=BDThe
>> french drain guys wanted all that money to dig a 24" french drain. =EF=BF=
>=BDA lot of
>> good that would do!
>>
>> Like your suggestion, I dug out around the house. =EF=BF=BDThe crawl space=
> had been
>> filled in with concrete block some years ago, but it wasn't sealed very
>> good. =EF=BF=BDI sealed and waterproofed it, then put a border of 4mil vin=
>yl
>> sheeting on it before I filled it in.
>>
>> Where the snake oil guys would have put a 24" french drain, I dug a
>> 50'X2'X6' deep trench, put a 4" socked slotted pipe at the bottom, then a
>> sheet of 4mil vinyl along the side of the trench. =EF=BF=BDThe pipe went a=
>round the
>> house to the lower side, where I got permission from the city to put a dra=
>in
>> in the curb. =EF=BF=BDI tied my gutter drains and a basement drain into it=
>.
>>
>> This drastic fix works. =EF=BF=BDWe've had less than moderate rains so far=
> this
>> spring and haven't had any for nearly a week, but that drain that comes ou=
>t
>> of my curb is still running down the street today. =EF=BF=BDIt shows no si=
>gn of
>> stopping.
>>
>> They would have put in the french drain and missed all that water!
>>
>> Oh, by the way, that crawl space is dry as a bone, even in rainy weather.
>> The partial basement, which used to be slimy, is now dry as a bone.- Hide =
>quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I am the other half of your success...................... failure.
>
>heres what we tried.......
>
>had foundation mostly dug out to footer level, found old drain line
>clogged completely, water proffed walls, installed new drain line, and
>many tons of gravel since we had to remove all the sidewalks and steps
>that suurrounded a good bit of the home. then regraded entire yard,
>installed new downspout drains going to street and daylight, replaced
>entire yard........
>
>If it hadnt been DIY it would of likely cost 20 grand...........
>
>guess what?:(
>
>Well the water no longer bothered the walls but still came up thru
>floor with every heavy rain........
>
>had interior french drain installed, that fixed it finally............
>
>conclusions exterior work costs a fortune and may not be
>effective........
>
>the costs for backhoe, gravel, dump truck to haul away excess dirt the
>gravel replaced, rebuilding lawn, tons of hard labor,new sidewalks and
>steps, well it all looked nice and gave the home curp appeal, we sold
>it some years later.
>
>but the interior drain worked better and only cost 3 grand.
>
>sometimes water table actually rises and all that exterior work is a
>grand waste of time and money/
>
>smart builders install interior french drains in new homes, today its
>frequently a building code requirement

Yep.

Around here every basement is a hole in clay. Of course water finds it. The
people living on *top* of the hill I live on eventually got an interior drain
tile system.

Banty


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