GFCI Troubleshooting

Posted by Robert Green on October 15, 2009, 2:01 pm

> > I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
> > basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
> > each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> > What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
> > whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> > --
> > Bobby G.

> Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.

That's probably the way it will end up as this is more or less a temporary
wiring setup. We discovered halfway through a recent rewire other, more
pressing problems when the basement plywood walls came down. Not an unusual
situation, from what I've read here about remodeling. Several expensive
mysteries were revealed that stalled the rewiring initiative. But I
digress.

> Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They
> need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five

feet

> from a water source (sink).

I'm no NECspert but I thought anywhere near water meant GFCIs are preferred
and that if you used them in drier locations, it was no harm/no foul. I got
my near-death lethal, burning skin, couldn't let go shock in my bedroom with
a Dr. Scholl's foot bath and massager. I reached for a swing arm, imitation
Luxo lamp and began to fry. A GFCI would have prevented that little mishap.
Had gravity not intervened, I would have died that day with a
foot-torso-heart-arm pathway for the shock that caused smoke to rise from my
burning feet. For some odd reason, even though I was completely paralyzed,
I still managed to fall out of the chair I was in and that broke my hand's
connection to the metal lamp handle. That's when I went a little GFCI crazy
and began installing them in all the household circuits as I upgraded from 2
wire to grounded service.

> The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while

> toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled
> quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI.

Regardless,

> your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical
> codes.

Hmmm. Well, something else was on the same circuit and probably did fire up
at the same time as the fridge. We've been having a lot of high winds and
"power blinks" and there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to blow
out the coils. The lower half of the refrigerator duplex outlet was the
nearest free outlet. They could have easily restarted within seconds of
each other.

I can certainly isolate the refrigerator on its own circuit and that seems
to be a prudent thing to do. This could have happened when no one was at
home.

> You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other
> receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly
> grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be
> minimal.

Got one that had disappeared for nearly a year to reappear at the bottom of
the seasonal lights box. Will try that out today. Did that, and it says
nothing's wrong.

> Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult as one
> cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into the initial
> wiring of the circuits.

Well, I can assist you a little by describing materials, equipment and
techniques used.

o Metal boxes with screw-down clamps screwed into studs where possible - not
squirmy plastic that depend on the constant "springiness" of the plastic
material over time to hold cables tight,

o 12/2 Romex (why would you ever use 14/2 when wire is cheap and time is
not?),

o screwed, not backstabbed connections,

o outlets wrapped with real 3M electrical tape and not Wal*Mart's 10 rolls
for dollar crap,

o Leviton receptacles, breakers and GFCI's,

o "InSure" push-in wire connectors instead of wing nuts (referenced here by
M. Dufas in an earlier thread) because they are easy to use and inspect (but
not find locally!!):

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodDetail.do?prodId=in-sure&div=0&l1=push-in&l2=in-sure

o Klein made in USA strippers, Triplet tong meter, GFCI tester, the 2008 NEC
pocket guide

o Five profusely illustrated home wiring DIY books that have paid for
themselves about 10 times over because a picture truly is worth 10,000 words
with skills like plumbing and electrical.

o 25 years of watching This Old House. Despite what many people say, there
isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one thing
better. Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa
the least. Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade every
three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing down
bizarre problems with hot water heating.

I only bring this up because just looking at my work in a photograph would
probably tell you about as much as what equipment I use or what questions I
ask does: and that's not enough to determine if my work was really any
good.

You'd have to pull stuff apart to determine true quality and workmanship.
Without close inspection, you couldn't tell whether there were any serious
nicks of the cable where it was stripped. You'd have to remove an outlet
and pull it apart AND tug on it to make sure a backstabbed outlet's claw
hadn't released its grip on the wire or become loose and corroded. Or that
I had stripped enough wire to even make a good connection. (Not really a
problem with my work because I don't backstab.) You'd at least have to
unwrap the electrical tape around the outlet to see if the end bends were
made correctly and were set firmly under the screw. You'd at least have to
twist the screw with a screwdriver to make sure it was tight. You'd have to
tug on all the wires under a wire nut to make sure they weren't making
intermittent contact (not a problem with the InSure connectors - they're
transparent so you can see if the wire's in right and tight) and so on and
so on.

I've been kind of amazed at what I've seen inspectors pass in some of the
houses I've lived in because things "looked neat" and wires weren't wrapped
in masking tape and hanging from rusty nails.

Any electrical work I do is always reviewed by at least a second pair of
eyes before it's ever inspected. That alone caught two or three mistakes
that would definitely have caused problems down the line. Around here once
an inspector thinks you're sloppy, it takes an awful lot to change his mind.
So I do things like making sure the screws on cover plates line up and that
the plates are plumb. I am not sure why, but growing up, my best friend's
dad was a electrician, and he did it that way, so I do too. Same with
wrapping an outlet in electrical tape. Some people say it's old-timer
nonsense, but I figure it can't hurt anything and might even help prevent a
short.

As far as code interpretation, I'll have to check with my local authority
having jurisdiction since his/hers is the only interpretation that matters.

(-:>

> Good Luck

Thanks. I think the plan is to move the fridge to its own dedicated line
that's still on a GFCI, but without any other loads on it. It's near enough
to the kitchen sink to be a concern and if it still trips, I will replace
it. If it still trips when a new GFCI's in place, I'll have to assume
there's an issue in the refrigerator wiring itself and try to determine
where the fault is. If that fails, and the refrigerator shows no obvious
faults, I'll eliminate the GFCI.

Fifty feet of Romex, another breaker and some fittings will likely be a lot
less costly than a freezer full of thawed-out food. I have an alarm on the
fridge to tell me when the unit has warmed beyond safe limits, but if no
one's in the house, it will just beep patiently while all the food spoils.
So far, the GFCI has NEVER tripped when no one was home. That tends to
support the "two incompatible devices on the same circuit" theory, I think.
The best way to test for that, is as you suggest, isolate the refrigerator
from all other appliances and outlets. Easiest, too!

Thanks for your input.

--
Bobby G.

Posted by DerbyDad03 on October 15, 2009, 3:39 pm

"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow

out the coils if no one was home. <g>

Posted by Robert Green on October 17, 2009, 1:17 am

<<"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow

out the coils if no one was home. <g>>>

Quite simple, really. The air compressor's got a slow leak in the
quick-change hose valve (a cheapy Harbor Freight deal). When the unit loses
power for more than a few minutes, it's unable to top itself off and the
tank loses pressure.

When electricity is restored, the unit automatically comes on to bring the
tank pressure back up. It only takes the power being down long enough for
the tank's pressure sensor switch to trigger to cause the fridge and the
compressor motor to fire simultaneously. That all occurs without anyone
being present. When the tank reaches pressure, the compressor motor shuts
off. So it could be the dual starting or it could be the abrupt shutoff and
reverse EMF spike of the compressor while the GFCI is also under load from
the fridge to trip the GFCI.

--
Bobby G.

Posted by DerbyDad03 on October 19, 2009, 1:14 pm

> <<"This could have happened when no one was at home."
> I don't see how.
> You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
> outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
> blow out the coils."
> I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow
> Quite simple, really. =A0The air compressor's got a slow leak in the
> quick-change hose valve (a cheapy Harbor Freight deal). =A0When the unit =

loses

> power for more than a few minutes, it's unable to top itself off and the
> tank loses pressure.
> When electricity is restored, the unit automatically comes on to bring th=

> tank pressure back up. =A0It only takes the power being down long enough =

for

> the tank's pressure sensor switch to trigger to cause the fridge and the
> compressor motor to fire simultaneously. =A0That all occurs without anyon=

> being present. =A0When the tank reaches pressure, the compressor motor sh=

uts

> off. =A0So it could be the dual starting or it could be the abrupt shutof=

f and

> reverse EMF spike of the compressor while the GFCI is also under load fro=

> the fridge to trip the GFCI.
> --
> Bobby G.

You missed the point of my "joke".

I was pointing out the fact that *no one could be using the compressor
to blow out the coils* if no one was home.

Sure, the compressor could have been plugged in to the GFCI when no
one was home and sure, both the compressor and the fridge could have
turned on at the same time when no one was home, but nobody could have
been using the compressor to blow out the coils if no one was home.

<g>

<g> =3D grin

Posted by Robert Green on October 20, 2009, 12:25 am

news:c9cef1c3-4fd4-4e53-

>You missed the point of my "joke".

Don't fret. I miss the point of most jokes made in newsgroups. It's not
you.

>I was pointing out the fact that *no one could be using the compressor
> to blow out the coils* if no one was home.

Depends. My little JRT loves the air compressor. Based on how frantic she
gets when I am using it, I'd say she likes it even more than chasing
squirrels. Since she's figured out how to unlock her crate, how to shoulder
a heavy file cabinet so she could get to her lost nylabone and how to open
the refrigerator, I wouldn't be surprised to find out she's learned how to
operate the compressor nozzle some day. You try telling her she's no one.

--
Bobby G.

Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 > last >>

Similar Threads	Posted
GFCI outlet troubleshooting	July 24, 2006, 5:16 pm
GFCI outlet troubleshooting	March 10, 2008, 6:44 pm
GFCI outlets required with a GFCI Breaker?	July 15, 2008, 3:10 pm
Troubleshooting A/C	October 2, 2006, 11:06 pm
help for troubleshooting	January 18, 2009, 12:02 pm
A/C Troubleshooting	June 26, 2009, 8:03 am
Gas Dryer Troubleshooting	October 14, 2005, 4:59 pm
Troubleshooting CFL Lamp	November 15, 2005, 2:08 pm
Troubleshooting receptacle	January 18, 2006, 3:57 pm
Re: Troubleshooting thermostat?	March 25, 2007, 9:06 pm

GFCI Troubleshooting - Page 3