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Subject Author Date
GFCI Troubleshooting Robert Green 10-15-2009
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Posted by bud-- on October 15, 2009, 9:59 am


ransley wrote:
>> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
>> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
>> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
>> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
>> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
>> --
>> Bobby G.
>
> Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
> tripped I removed it.

Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
GFCI protected.

The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.

The arguments were:
"The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
"The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

RBM and John have good advice.

--
bud--

Posted by Robert Green on October 21, 2009, 3:56 am


> ransley wrote:
> >> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
> >> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each
> >> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> >> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether
> >> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> >> --
> >> Bobby G.
> > Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
> > tripped I removed it.
> Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
> GFCI protected.
> The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
> all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.
> The arguments were:
> "The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
> equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
> ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
> have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
> "The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
> 'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."
> RBM and John have good advice.
> --
> bud--

Sorry I missed this and a few others on the first read through. New
newserver.

That's a good point about current leakage rates. If the unit still trips
with nothing else on the circuit AND a new model GFCI in place, then I am
going to begin checking out the refrigerator with an ammeter* to see if
there really is a current leak. At that point I'd be willing to believe
it's not simply a nuisance trip, but an indication of a problem. Hopefully
I'll remember to switch the fridge to a non-GFCI outlet when we're away. If
there's a ground fault when no one is home, that's not as bad as a meltdown
of all our food.

*(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)

--
Bobby G.



Posted by terry on October 21, 2009, 6:55 am


> > ransley wrote:
:
> > >> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen a=
nd
> > >> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. =A0I've reset it a=
fter
> each
> > >> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> > >> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
> whether
> > >> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> > >> --
> > >> Bobby G.
> > > Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
> > > tripped I removed it.
> > Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
> > GFCI protected.
> > The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
> > all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerat=
or.
> > The arguments were:
> > "The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
> > equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
> > ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
> > have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standar=
d."
> > "The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
> > 'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."
> > RBM and John have good advice.
> > --
> > bud--
> Sorry I missed this and a few others on the first read through. New
> newserver.
> That's a good point about current leakage rates. =A0If the unit still tri=
ps
> with nothing else on the circuit AND a new model GFCI in place, then I am
> going to begin checking out the refrigerator with an ammeter* to see if
> there really is a current leak. =A0At that point I'd be willing to believ=
e
> it's not simply a nuisance trip, but an indication of a problem. =A0Hopef=
ully
> I'll remember to switch the fridge to a non-GFCI outlet when we're away. =
=A0If
> there's a ground fault when no one is home, that's not as bad as a meltdo=
wn
> of all our food.
> *(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)
> --
> Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -

Good question but how/why do many other units get adopted/used.
Is not 'Volt' named after the researcher Volta?
Another example is the Bel (or more commonly the Deci-bel =3D one tenth
of a Bel). Or more commonly and colloquially as Dbs. ("dee-bees").
Named after Alexander Graham Bell!
I think 'watt' and 'ohm' are unshortened?
Just a thought.

Posted by Robert Green on October 21, 2009, 7:18 pm


news:b38c0972-f220-46a1-8139-

<stuff snipped>

>> *(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)
>> --
>> Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -

> Good question but how/why do many other units get adopted/used.
> Is not 'Volt' named after the researcher Volta?
> Another example is the Bel (or more commonly the Deci-bel = one tenth
> of a Bel). Or more commonly and colloquially as Dbs. ("dee-bees").
> Named after Alexander Graham Bell!
> I think 'watt' and 'ohm' are unshortened?
> Just a thought.

How about that poor CPS abbreviation, getting sacked and replaced buy Hz. I
can just hear it gloating: "Hertz, donut!"

It sounded funnier rattling around in my brain, I swear! - I was going to
say it must have stung like a hit in the family joules . . .

1000 aches = kilohurtz
What is it that's black, charred and smouldering and hangs from a light
socket? An DIY electrician trying to change a light bulb!

Diode - What everyone hopes they'll do

Somebody, pull the plug on me!

Who's old enough here to remember that TV show with the meter, "Queen
Faraday?"

The problem with bad electrical puns is that anyone conduit.

1012 bulls = 1 terabull - what these puns are!


100 buckets of bits on the buss,
100 buckets of bits,
Take one down, short it to ground,
99 buckets of bits on the buss.

OK, I'm tapped, I've run out of Gauss.

--
Bobby G.



Posted by on October 21, 2009, 12:06 pm


On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:56:32 -0400, "Robert Green"

>That's a good point about current leakage rates. If the unit still trips
>with nothing else on the circuit AND a new model GFCI in place, then I am
>going to begin checking out the refrigerator with an ammeter* to see if
>there really is a current leak. At that point I'd be willing to believe
>it's not simply a nuisance trip, but an indication of a problem. Hopefully
>I'll remember to switch the fridge to a non-GFCI outlet when we're away. If
>there's a ground fault when no one is home, that's not as bad as a meltdown
>of all our food.

I have investigated a couple of these old refrigerators that trip
GFCIs and they were all bad. Most had internal shorts in the
compressor.
I suspect that is why they use more power as they age and why the
freon has a burnt smell when you cut open the line.
If you put a scope with a current probe on the grounding conductor you
see spikes. I bet there is a mini thunderstorm going on inside that
compressor. Eventually this can get bad enough to trip the breaker but
if the short is closer to the neutral end of the winding it might run
like this forever. The only real danger to the user is if the ground
has a high impedance and some voltage gets imposed on the case.

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