GFCI Troubleshooting

Posted by DerbyDad03 on October 15, 2009, 11:29 am

> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. =A0I've reset it after =

each

> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whethe=

> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> --
> Bobby G.

This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.

Here's my logic:

They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
working, right?

OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
particular point in time.

In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
it will.

Posted by bud-- on October 15, 2009, 2:08 pm

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
>> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
>> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
>> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
>> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
>> --
>> Bobby G.

>
> This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
> the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.
>
> Here's my logic:
>
> They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
> working, right?
>
> OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
> working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
> afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
> it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
> all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
> particular point in time.
>
> In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
> will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
> that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
> it will.

All medical tests (glaucoma, cholesterol, cancer, ...) are useless. They
don't tell you if you will have a problem tomorrow.

--
bud--

Posted by DerbyDad03 on October 15, 2009, 2:35 pm

> DerbyDad03 wrote:

> >> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
> >> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. =A0I've reset it aft=

er each

> >> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> >> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whe=

ther

> >> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> >> --
> >> Bobby G.

> > This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
> > the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.
> > Here's my logic:
> > They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
> > working, right?
> > OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
> > working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
> > afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
> > it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
> > all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
> > particular point in time.
> > In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
> > will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
> > that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
> > it will.

> All medical tests (glaucoma, cholesterol, cancer, ...) are useless. They
> don't tell you if you will have a problem tomorrow.
> --
> bud--- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -

"Useless" is your word, not mine, and given the examples you chose,
also wrong.

Similar to testing a GFCI, medical tests can certainly tell you if
something needs to be done *right now* - swap the known bad GFCI for a
hopefully good one, begin a medication regimen or diet change, etc.

In addition, certain medical tests can signal an upcoming problem. For
example, higher than normal glaucoma readings might signify a need
more frequent testing than a normal reading would. Higher than normal
cholesterol numbers might indicate the need for a change in diet or
even medication.

While a normal reading will certainly not mean that you will never get
sick, statistics show that if you have a normal reading and get tested
on a regular basis, problems can be usually be caught before they
become life (or sight) threatening.

However, a GFCI test doesn't have a "range". It's either going to pass
or fail. Failure tells you something useful...passing means nothing.
Failure tells you that you should change it right now=85passing simply
means it probably would have worked if it was needed in the past.

That=92s why I used the word conundrum, not useless.

Posted by Robert Green on October 21, 2009, 12:00 pm

news:ccbb7393-f6bf-46a3-

<However, a GFCI test doesn't have a "range". It's either going to pass
or fail. Failure tells you something useful...passing means nothing.
Failure tells you that you should change it right now…passing simply

means it probably would have worked if it was needed in the past.>

While the tester is certainly a binary, pass-fail event, nuisance tripping
may actually be the GFCI detecting a growing irregularity of some kind.
Cords fray slowly and corrosion is no jack rabbit, either. That's my
"current" conundrum - deciding whether the nuisance tripping is really just
a spurious event or a signal that there's an unhealthy interaction between
electrical components that should be run to ground. I guess I've worried
myself enough to stop grousing about it and read up about detecting current
leaks in appliances.

As a X-10 home automation user, I've learned the the household wiring is
truly a network. Plug-in devices can interact very strongly with each other
in some very annoying ways. In my case the bad interactions appear as
ground loops and degraded X-10 signal strength.

--
Bobby G.

Posted by jamesgangnc on October 15, 2009, 2:10 pm

> I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
> basement outlets trip twice within the last year. =A0I've reset it after =

each

> trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.
> What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whethe=

> the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?
> --
> Bobby G.

Take the fridge off the gfci. If you're lucky you can just move it
down one outlet and cover the remaining outlets.

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GFCI Troubleshooting - Page 7