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GFCI operation question Methos 08-24-2006
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Posted by PPS on August 30, 2006, 7:21 pm
Only requirement I'm aware of where GFPE's (30 ma GFCI) are required in the
2005 NEC is Section 426.28.

"Ook" <Ook Don't send me any freakin' spam at zootal dot com delete the
Don't send me any freakin' spam> wrote in message
> What is "30ma ground fault protection"? It takes less then 30 mA to kill a
> man.



Posted by David Combs on September 23, 2006, 8:33 pm
>
>A loose connection can produce enough heat to start a fire without
>arcing (a "glowing" connection). Late stages in failure are likely to arc.
>
>AFCIs sense "parallel" arcs - from hot-to-neutral (a "fault", the F in
>AFCI). Starting in 2008 the NEC requires them to also detect "series"
>arcs, as in a loose connection. As far as I know, no current AFCIs
>detect series arcs, so none would detect a loose connection.
>
>>
>>
>> Methos
>>
>> A GFIC is made to trip on sudden line voltage changes. A slow warm up
>> would not trip the built in breaker. This very problem cause a house
>> fire that burned a third of my parents house to the ground. Two wires
>> in some old Romex touched and caused a slow short but it was not enough
>> to trip the breakers. Therefore, it warmed up long enough to catch fire.
>>
>> GFIC's are a nice safety feature but it certainly doesn't catch all
>> problems
>
>GFCIs trip on a difference in current between the hot and neutral, not
>line voltage changes. They are primarily for electrocution protection.
>
>The "slow short" you describe, an arc that trips a breaker slowly, if at
>all, is exacty what AFCIs are designed to protect against. A more likely
>cause is probably an abused extension cord.
>
>AFCIs also include 30mA ground fault protection (GFCIs have 5mA
>protection). The idea is, I think, that if a ground wire is adjacent, a
>hot-to-neutral arc is likely to also become hot-to-ground.
>
>bud--

What is an AFIC?

Thanks!

David



Posted by Sam E on September 23, 2006, 11:54 pm
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 00:33:42 +0000 (UTC), dkcombs@panix.com (David
Combs) wrote:

[snip]

>What is an AFIC?
>

An Arc Fault Interrupted Circuit. A circuit that has no current in it
because you didn't use an AFCI, your house was on fire, and the fire
department cut off the power.

>Thanks!
>
>David
>

Posted by Bud-- on September 26, 2006, 3:07 am
David Combs wrote:

>
>>A loose connection can produce enough heat to start a fire without
>>arcing (a "glowing" connection). Late stages in failure are likely to arc.
>>
>>AFCIs sense "parallel" arcs - from hot-to-neutral (a "fault", the F in
>>AFCI). Starting in 2008 the NEC requires them to also detect "series"
>>arcs, as in a loose connection. As far as I know, no current AFCIs
>>detect series arcs, so none would detect a loose connection.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Methos
>>>
>>>A GFIC is made to trip on sudden line voltage changes. A slow warm up
>>>would not trip the built in breaker. This very problem cause a house
>>>fire that burned a third of my parents house to the ground. Two wires
>>>in some old Romex touched and caused a slow short but it was not enough
>>>to trip the breakers. Therefore, it warmed up long enough to catch fire.
>>>
>>>GFIC's are a nice safety feature but it certainly doesn't catch all
>>>problems
>>
>>GFCIs trip on a difference in current between the hot and neutral, not
>>line voltage changes. They are primarily for electrocution protection.
>>
>>The "slow short" you describe, an arc that trips a breaker slowly, if at
>>all, is exacty what AFCIs are designed to protect against. A more likely
>>cause is probably an abused extension cord.
>>
>>AFCIs also include 30mA ground fault protection (GFCIs have 5mA
>>protection). The idea is, I think, that if a ground wire is adjacent, a
>>hot-to-neutral arc is likely to also become hot-to-ground.
>>
>>bud--
>
>
> What is an AFIC?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David
>
>

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter. The AFCI breakers look like, and wire
like GFCIs. AFCIs trip on arcs. The NEC requires them on new circuits to
bedrooms. The proposed 2008 NEC requires them for all residential 15 and
20A circuits IIRC (could still be changed though).

A good paper from the Consumer Product Safety Commission on AFCIs is at
http://www.cpsc.gov/volstd/afci/AFCIFireTechnology.pdf
It explains the rationalle for using AFCIs describes how they work.

bud--

Posted by on September 26, 2006, 6:01 am

| Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter. The AFCI breakers look like, and wire
| like GFCIs. AFCIs trip on arcs. The NEC requires them on new circuits to
| bedrooms. The proposed 2008 NEC requires them for all residential 15 and
| 20A circuits IIRC (could still be changed though).

And AFCI-only device could be made to work without accessing the neutral
of the circuit involved. The issue is the AFCI device needs to use power
to function. Possibly that is the only purpose of the neutral pigtail if
the device does not include any GFCI function.

I hope the change goes through. But I would like to see local AHJ rules
that permit case-by-case exceptions to be made where AFCI devices are
found to be incompatible with certain appliances.

And regarding the issue of putting smoke detectors on AFCI protected
circuits. The simple solution is keep receptacle circuits and lighting
circuits separate, and put the smoke detectors on the lighting circuits.
Those circuits should have much less instance of nuisance trips, and
would more readily be noticed if they are opened, in case the smoke
detector false to alarm.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2006-09-26-0455@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

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