GFCI's required in a non-updated bathroom? (Two prong type)

Posted by teabird on November 1, 2009, 6:46 pm

> > (I'm clueless about electricity... actually it sort of scares me, so th=

> > is all Greek to me).
> > Question - I'm in the process of selling an older(1950's) home. The hom=

> > inspection was Friday, and I got the buyers' laundry list Saturday
> > afternoon. One of the things they are asking for is GFCI's to be instal=

led

> > in the bathrooms. (This is in Baltimore County, if that makes a
> > difference). I know that I've heard that these are required if a bathro=

> > is renovated, but are they required in one that hasn't been? The only
> > thing I've done in the past 20+ years to the bathroom was to paint, and
> > have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong outlet near
> > the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online that says the=

> > can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment ground (whatever th=

> > is).
> > In the basement bathroom (truly in the basement, not like it's a powder
> > room), the only outlet at all is one that is built into an old medicine
> > cupboard.
> > I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
> > requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
> > desirable. The home inspection report just says "recommend bathroom
> > electrical outlet be replaced with GFCI type outlet". There are a numbe=

> > of other items in the laundry list that to me fall in the "it would be
> > nice" category (repair cracked tiles on bathroom wall), but don't affec=

> > habitability of the house, and I'm trying to figure if it's easier to j=

ust

> > offer some additional money at settlement and let them have the work do=

> > themselves. I guess I'll spend the day on the phone tomorrow getting
> > estimates.

> These days it's hard to determine "what's required", as your locality pre=

tty

> much can require anything they want. Typically, when a house is built, a
> certificate of occupancy is issued, and grandfathered unless additional
> renovation or expansion to the building is done. In your case, you may no=

> have grounded wiring, so I would leave any "upgrades" to the new owners. =

> far as electrical wiring and National electric code goes, there is not a
> stitch of wiring in your house that would comply with current standards, =

> why stop at GFCI outlets

I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
labor and the rest in parts.

Good luck,

Posted by zxcvbob on November 1, 2009, 6:55 pm

teabird wrote:

> I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
> up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
> offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
> issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
> fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
> have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
> labor and the rest in parts.
>
> Good luck,
>

I agree with this too, mostly, but replacing that one 2-prong outlet
buys a lot of safety for about $7 or $8; it's a nice gesture.

I wouldn't give them any money for fixing the electrical (unless you
are desperate to sell.) The old electrical system is already
assumed in your asking price. If they want a new house, they should
buy a new house and expect to pay accordingly.

Bob

Posted by RBM on November 1, 2009, 7:23 pm

> teabird wrote:

>> I agree with RBM. There is *alot* of work needed to bring this house
>> up to safe standard, and alot more to bring it up to code. I suggest
>> offering the buyer some money in lieu of fixing these few electrical
>> issues. They'll probably jump at it since they were going to have it
>> fixed up even more anyway. It would cost an you about $100 (+/-) to
>> have an electrician come out and do the basic changes, about $70 for
>> labor and the rest in parts.
>> Good luck,

> I agree with this too, mostly, but replacing that one 2-prong outlet buys
> a lot of safety for about $7 or $8; it's a nice gesture.
> I wouldn't give them any money for fixing the electrical (unless you are
> desperate to sell.) The old electrical system is already assumed in your
> asking price. If they want a new house, they should buy a new house and
> expect to pay accordingly.
> Bob

I wouldn't have a problem with installing a few GFCI outlets if the wiring
is grounded. If it's not, and you stick labels on the new outlets stating
this, as is required, you may inadvertently cause alarm in the buyer or
their house inspector, who apparently didn't notice or mention anything
about ungrounded wiring.
My position would be that if the wiring and devices were up to current code,
I'd want more for the house. The price is what it is, because it's
reflecting the current state of the building.

Posted by dpb on November 1, 2009, 7:11 pm

RBM wrote:
...

>> I don't want to lose the sale, and am willing to do what's legally
>> requited, but am trying to find out if these are *required* or just
>> desirable. ...

...

> These days it's hard to determine "what's required", ...

Nothing is required legally almost certainly.

Virtually all that is required in any jurisdiction will be the
disclosure form; it's up to the buyer to decide whether the condition of
the house is what they're willing to accept or not contingent on
offer/counter-offer.

Asking for items on an inspection report to be fixed is pretty common;
I'd be like somebody else here and do the one or two GFCI's as they're
essentially no-cost, trivial items.

You can, of course, make the counter-offer of some $$ in lieu, but this
is so trivial I'd not bother.

Folks here seem to get terribly uptight over 2-wire wiring, etc., but
the fact is, it's served quite adequately for 100 years or so and
problems associated w/ lack of the third ground wire have been so
minimal as to be news when they did happen. Not that newer Code isn't
better in many ways, but there's no need to get particularly worked up
over older house wiring that is in good shape--the house hasn't burned
down yet and you haven't been electrocuted. It ain't likely either will
happen any time soon, either. :)

Ask your realtor or legal counsel of any specific requirements or call
the local jurisdiction building inspection department and ask them.

--

Posted by propman on November 1, 2009, 8:48 pm

Lee B wrote:

>
> paint, and have a new vanity installed. There is currently a two prong
> outlet near the sink in the hall bath. I saw a couple of sites online
> that says these can be GFI'd, but that they won't have an equipment
> ground (whatever that is).

FWIW, so far no-one seems to have mentioned this but the two prongs
doesn't necessarily mean that the ground wire is missing....a lot of
older bathrooms had a two pronged razor outlet installed which used a
step-down transformer to lower the line voltage to a lower value (can't
recall the exact amount off hand). The cover plates for these units were
quite a bit larger than regular outlet cover plates....also curling
irons plugged into these outlets didn't work due to the reduced voltage.

This may or may not apply in your case but you should be able to easily
check to see if there is proper grounding to the box.

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GFCI's required in a non-updated bathroom? (Two prong type) - Page 2