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GFI outlet on Arc Fault protected Circuit ?

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GFI outlet on Arc Fault protected Circuit ? Rudy 09-10-2008
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Posted by Rudy on September 10, 2008, 3:08 pm


New Code here requires Arc Fault breakers on circuits in bedrooms. I
haven't put one in yet as the B/rooms are unfinished so I temporarily have a
regular 15A breaker in the panel to give me power as I finish the rooms.
I propose to put a GFI outlet in the same circuit, to be used to plug in a
small pump for a water feature in one of the rooms, so my questions are:

1.Do I need a GFI outlet in the circuit or does the "Arc fault" protection
in the panel breaker cover the submersible pump ?
2.Would the GFI "work" as expected in the Arc Fault Circuit or if it
tripped, would it also trip the Arc Fault breaker ?

I think I read here that the Arc Fault is less sensitive than the GFI so in
theory, IS the answer to my Q2 "No" for that reason ?



Posted by RBM on September 10, 2008, 6:31 pm



> New Code here requires Arc Fault breakers on circuits in bedrooms. I
> haven't put one in yet as the B/rooms are unfinished so I temporarily have
> a regular 15A breaker in the panel to give me power as I finish the rooms.
> I propose to put a GFI outlet in the same circuit, to be used to plug in a
> small pump for a water feature in one of the rooms, so my questions are:
>
> 1.Do I need a GFI outlet in the circuit or does the "Arc fault" protection
> in the panel breaker cover the submersible pump ?
> 2.Would the GFI "work" as expected in the Arc Fault Circuit or if it
> tripped, would it also trip the Arc Fault breaker ?
>
> I think I read here that the Arc Fault is less sensitive than the GFI so
> in theory, IS the answer to my Q2 "No" for that reason ?
>There is no electric code requiring GFCI protection in a bedroom, so unless
>the equipment that you're pluggin in requires GFCI protection, I would just
>leave it AFCI protected



Posted by Rudy on September 12, 2008, 12:07 am



>> New Code here requires Arc Fault breakers on circuits in bedrooms. ..
>> I propose to put a GFI outlet in the same circuit, to be used to plug in
>> a small pump for a water feature in one of the rooms, so my questions
>> are:
>>
>> 1.Do I need a GFI outlet in the circuit or does the "Arc fault"
>> protection in the panel breaker cover the submersible pump ?
>> 2.Would the GFI "work" as expected in the Arc Fault Circuit or if it
>> tripped, would it also trip the Arc Fault breaker ?
>>
>> I think I read here that the Arc Fault is less sensitive than the GFI so
>> in theory, IS the answer to my Q2 "No" for that reason ?

>>There is no electric code requiring GFCI protection in a bedroom, so
>>unless the equipment that you're pluggin in requires GFCI protection, I
>>would just leave it AFCI protected

So the safety factor provided by the Arc fault breaker, renders the use of
an extra GFI outlet within the same circuit (even though it will be powering
pump in a water feature) redundant ? What if I were to run a line off the
Arc fault circuit to "outside" and put a similar water feature outside in
the garden ? Is the GFI still not required ?



Posted by bud-- on September 12, 2008, 12:54 pm


Rudy wrote:
>>> New Code here requires Arc Fault breakers on circuits in bedrooms. ..

(The 2008 NEC expands AFCI use well beyond bedrooms.)

>>> I propose to put a GFI outlet in the same circuit, to be used to plug in
>>> a small pump for a water feature in one of the rooms, so my questions
>>> are:
>>>
>>> 1.Do I need a GFI outlet in the circuit or does the "Arc fault"
>>> protection in the panel breaker cover the submersible pump ?


>>> 2.Would the GFI "work" as expected in the Arc Fault Circuit or if it
>>> tripped, would it also trip the Arc Fault breaker ?
>>>
>>> I think I read here that the Arc Fault is less sensitive than the GFI so
>>> in theory, IS the answer to my Q2 "No" for that reason ?

The answer is maybe. AFCIs are required to have ground fault protection
at 50mA (but usually provided at 30mA). The GFCI works fine on an AFCI
circuit. If the leakage is over 50/30mA both may trip.

>
>> There is no electric code requiring GFCI protection in a bedroom, so
>> unless the equipment that you're pluggin in requires GFCI protection, I
>> would just leave it AFCI protected
>
> So the safety factor provided by the Arc fault breaker, renders the use of
> an extra GFI outlet within the same circuit (even though it will be powering
> pump in a water feature) redundant ?

What shock hazard does the "water feature" introduce. Areas that require
a GFCI generally have a 'ground' readily available (water pipes,
concrete floor, earth).

A water pump doesn't necessarily introduce a shock hazard. Aquariums are
not noted for being dangerous. If there is significant shock hazard add
a GFCI.

> What if I were to run a line off the
> Arc fault circuit to "outside" and put a similar water feature outside in
> the garden ? Is the GFI still not required ?

A GFCI is specifically required for outside outlets.

--
bud--

Posted by Bill on September 11, 2008, 7:59 am


I believe you now need a GFCI in wet locations, so AFCI breaker for bedroom,
then GFCI outlet for water feature in bedroom.

Arc fault detects "sparking", whereas GFCI detects you being electrocuted.

So if the sparks are flying, the AFCI will turn off power. If you are being
electrocuted, the GFCI will turn off power.

If the GFCI trips, it should not trip the AFCI so far as I know.

"Rudy" wrote in message
> New Code here requires Arc Fault breakers on circuits in bedrooms. I
> haven't put one in yet as the B/rooms are unfinished so I temporarily have
> a regular 15A breaker in the panel to give me power as I finish the rooms.
> I propose to put a GFI outlet in the same circuit, to be used to plug in a
> small pump for a water feature in one of the rooms, so my questions are:
>
> 1.Do I need a GFI outlet in the circuit or does the "Arc fault" protection
> in the panel breaker cover the submersible pump ?
> 2.Would the GFI "work" as expected in the Arc Fault Circuit or if it
> tripped, would it also trip the Arc Fault breaker ?
>
> I think I read here that the Arc Fault is less sensitive than the GFI so
> in theory, IS the answer to my Q2 "No" for that reason ?
>



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