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Garage Short Circuit? MJR 08-15-2005
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Posted by EXT on August 16, 2005, 11:05 am


Many people, including some posters on this newsgroup, think that all
electrical problems are a "short circuit" and have no concept as to what a
short circuit is and what it would do. Their analytical skills and knowledge
is just as accurate.

> Joseph Meehan wrote:
>
> > MJR wrote:
> >
> >>symptoms
> >>1. garage lights won't turn on
> >>2. garage door opener won't go up/down
> >>3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
> >>4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
> >>5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage
> >>
> >>
> >>what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?
> >>
> >>the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks
> >>
> >>the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
> >>the yard to the garage.
> >
> >
> > For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a red
> > herring.
> >
> > Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
> > check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be protecting your
> > garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or breaker box. It the
> > test and reset button on each one.
> >
> > If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low amp
> > induced current and you never would have been able to measure it without
> > that digital meter you used.
> >
> >
>
> Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough current
> to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being provided by
> induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if they are
> extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that happening.
>
> Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
> certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my money
> on a high resistance joint somewhere.
>
> That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
> means are correct, something that isn't always true on this newsgroup. <G>
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeffry Wisnia
>
> (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
>
> "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."




Posted by Jeff Wisnia on August 16, 2005, 12:18 pm


EXT wrote:
> Many people, including some posters on this newsgroup, think that all
> electrical problems are a "short circuit" and have no concept as to what a
> short circuit is and what it would do. Their analytical skills and knowledge
> is just as accurate.
>
>


Well, we can't expect everyone to be a qualified tech writer. I'm not
one to rag on people who aren't skilled in every possible art, as long
as they don't insist that they are when they're patently not. Sometimes
trying to decode what a poster is really telling here can provide an
interesting challenge.

I'd hate to have my internist chide me because I couldn't explain what I
thought my ailment was using the proper clinical jargon.

OTOH, I pretty much agree with folks here who say, "Get a qualified
electrician fast", when the OP seems too naive to get all the way up to
speed through a few posts. Humans haven't evolved senses which let them
see, hear or smell household electricity unless it's already started
something frying or burning. The risks of immediate electrocution or
subsequent incineration of innocent victims are pretty high. Apparant
fools shouldn't be encouraged to rush in where angels dare to tread.
(Sermon over.)

This all reminded me of when I used to repair radios & TVs in the vacuum
toob days. I'd sometimes tell a customer that the problem I'd found in
their equipment was "a loose disconnection" when I was pretty sure
they'd never understand what I'd really done, even if I explained it a
dozen times. <G>

Peace,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."


Posted by Joseph Meehan on August 16, 2005, 8:06 pm


Jeff Wisnia wrote:
> Joseph Meehan wrote:
>
>> MJR wrote:
>>
>>>symptoms
>>>1. garage lights won't turn on
>>>2. garage door opener won't go up/down
>>>3. when light switch is off, garage opener sensors light up
>>>4. when light switch is on (lights don't go on), sensors go off
>>>5. Voltage tester shows 104 volts in all outlets in garage
>>>
>>>
>>>what should I do (besides calling an electrician)?
>>>
>>>the problem began soon after the first rains in 6 weeks
>>>
>>>the power to the garage is underground conduit from the house, under
>>>the yard to the garage.
>>
>>
>> For the moment, let's ignore that 104 Volts as I believe it is a
>> red herring.
>>
>> Go check the circuit breakers, Is one tripped? I suspect not. Now
>> check out all your GFIs. One or more of them should be
>> protecting your garage. They may be in the garage, kitchen bath or
>> breaker box. It the test and reset button on each one.
>>
>> If that gets you power, the 104V you found was only a very low
>> amp induced current and you never would have been able to measure it
>> without that digital meter you used.
>>
>>
>
> Joseph, I'm usually in agreement with you, but if there's enough
> current to light up the opener sensors I doubt that it's being
> provided by induced or capacitively coupled current. But, maybe if
> they are extremely low current devices there is a possibility of that
> happening.

I suspect if they are lighting up the sensors, it is not just an induced
current. Note that I did say IF that (resetting breakers and GFIs) ...
Maybe I should have been more direct with my "IF" ;-)

>
> Nothing to be lost by following the steps you describe, they are
> certainly the simplest thing to start with, but I'll still put my
> money on a high resistance joint somewhere.
>
> That's assuming the OP's description and our understanding of what he
> means are correct, something that isn't always true on this
> newsgroup. <G>
> Jeff

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit




Posted by MJR on August 16, 2005, 6:09 pm


To all posters so far thanks. here are some additional comments

1. The circuit breaker never flipped to off by itself, I identified it
and switched it off and on, to no avail
and then switched it off for the day as a safety measure.
2. There are 3 wall outlets in the garage 2 with external GFI buttons,
with both when I hit reset and hold it , I feel a subtle clicking
noise, when I push the test button, the glow tester in the outlet goes
off, when I release the test button the glow tester goes on. the reset
button never "pops out" as I have seen with some other GFI outlets.
3. there are no other outlets or switches that I know of between the
conduit leaving the house and that entering the garage. alowing with
the hot and neutral wires, there is a 3 way switch bundle for an
outside light on the garage, with switches in my kitchen and in the
garage.

I think I will replace or check the circuit - in the interest of
safety, I will have my wife actually swap it out :-)



Posted by Joseph Meehan on August 19, 2005, 7:35 pm


MJR wrote:
> To all posters so far thanks. here are some additional comments
>
> 1. The circuit breaker never flipped to off by itself, I identified it
> and switched it off and on, to no avail
> and then switched it off for the day as a safety measure.
> 2. There are 3 wall outlets in the garage 2 with external GFI buttons,
> with both when I hit reset and hold it , I feel a subtle clicking
> noise, when I push the test button, the glow tester in the outlet goes
> off, when I release the test button the glow tester goes on. the reset
> button never "pops out" as I have seen with some other GFI outlets.
> 3. there are no other outlets or switches that I know of between the
> conduit leaving the house and that entering the garage. alowing with
> the hot and neutral wires, there is a 3 way switch bundle for an
> outside light on the garage, with switches in my kitchen and in the
> garage.
>
> I think I will replace or check the circuit - in the interest of
> safety, I will have my wife actually swap it out :-)

Try disconnecting the downstream wires at the GFIs. If things work
normal (other than what would be out because you disconnected parts of the
circuit, then I would guess you have a fault on the circuit you just
disconnected.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit




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