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Garage heater - low temps Mark 10-30-2007
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Posted by DerbyDad03 on November 1, 2007, 10:39 am
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 9:34 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:
>
> >>> RickH wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>> I've been looking for a 40F degree thermostat for 10 years now, let me
> >>>> know if you find one. ...
> >>> I posted a link to one at Grainger yesterday in response to haller's
> >>> posting.
> >> The other poster's suggestion of taking a good look at a
> >> few makes of line-voltage thermostats for electric heat is
> >> a good one.
>
> >> Over thirty years ago, we found that some thermostats start
> >> at around 50F with an offswitch, and others don't have an
> >> offswitch, and start around 36F.
>
> >> We wanted the 36F ones to keep a cottage just above freezing.
> >> --
> >> Chris Lewis,
>
> >> Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
> >> It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
>
> > In reading some of the questions that get sent to the Home Repair
> > section of our local newspaper, I think I recall something about
> > issues with condensation if the temperature is kept below some magic
> > number (50?).
>
> > You know..."I'm going to Florida for 3 months. What's the lowest I can
> > set my thermostat to?"
>
> > I don't recall that the answers started with a "3". I'm sure it was
> > much higher - and it wasn't related to the minimum allowed by the
> > thermostat. It was related to actual environmental factors.
>
> > Can anybody concur with what I think I remember?
>
> Would depend on the structure and ambient conditions of the location
> more than just the temperature as to what would/wouldn't be a problem.
> Here (SW KS) there's no problem from a condensation standpoint in a
> totally unheated shop area. In a humid area, not so much.
>
> Don't believe there's a single right answer (in fact I'm sure there's
> not) for all situations, but can see something like 50F being ok as a
> generic answer that would cover most situations that a generic column of
> the sort would respond with. That's not the same thing as what any
> individual shop could use a safe minimum by any stretch.
>
> --
>
> --- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The writers of the questions and the authors of the answers are a
little more specific regarding location - Western NY - where temps and
humidity can vary greatly due to lake effects.

IIRC 50 seemed to be the recommended number - perhaps a generic
number, albeit for a different reason than you suggest. In other
words, not generic so as to cover a national audience, but generic
enough to cover the wide swings of weather conditions near the lakes.

In any case, the OP might want to do a little research and determine
if "just above freezing" is the correct temperature for his location.

Thanks!


AppliancePartsPros.com, Inc.
Posted by dpb on November 1, 2007, 10:46 am
DerbyDad03 wrote:
...
>>> In reading some of the questions that get sent to the Home Repair
>>> section of our local newspaper, I think I recall something about
>>> issues with condensation if the temperature is kept below some magic
>>> number (50?).
>>> You know..."I'm going to Florida for 3 months. What's the lowest I can
>>> set my thermostat to?"
>>> I don't recall that the answers started with a "3". I'm sure it was
>>> much higher - and it wasn't related to the minimum allowed by the
>>> thermostat. It was related to actual environmental factors.
>>> Can anybody concur with what I think I remember?
>> Would depend on the structure and ambient conditions of the location
>> more than just the temperature as to what would/wouldn't be a problem.
>> Here (SW KS) there's no problem from a condensation standpoint in a
>> totally unheated shop area. In a humid area, not so much.
>>
>> Don't believe there's a single right answer (in fact I'm sure there's
>> not) for all situations, but can see something like 50F being ok as a
>> generic answer that would cover most situations that a generic column of
>> the sort would respond with. That's not the same thing as what any
>> individual shop could use a safe minimum by any stretch.
...
> The writers of the questions and the authors of the answers are a
> little more specific regarding location - Western NY - where temps and
> humidity can vary greatly due to lake effects.
>
> IIRC 50 seemed to be the recommended number - perhaps a generic
> number, albeit for a different reason than you suggest. In other
> words, not generic so as to cover a national audience, but generic
> enough to cover the wide swings of weather conditions near the lakes.
...

I contend it is the same reason. :)

I'd even wager they would give the same answer for any geographic area
outside the High Plains or Desert Southwest (and would be highly like to
there as well because they probably have no experience in any other
climate so would still use the CYA answer).

--


Posted by Edwin Pawlowski on November 1, 2007, 10:47 am

>
> IIRC 50 seemed to be the recommended number - perhaps a generic
> number, albeit for a different reason than you suggest. In other
> words, not generic so as to cover a national audience, but generic
> enough to cover the wide swings of weather conditions near the lakes.
>
> In any case, the OP might want to do a little research and determine
> if "just above freezing" is the correct temperature for his location.

Another consideration is a safety factor. A building at 50 degrees will stay
above freezing longer in a power failure than one at 32.1111 degrees. Not a
big deal if comfort is the only consideration, but if keeping water from
doing damage, you have to plan ahead a bit.

I maintain a large (poorly insulated) building that is used for storage, but
cannot freeze. Keeping it at 45 is good for at least 30 hours.



Posted by DerbyDad03 on November 1, 2007, 10:56 am
>
> > IIRC 50 seemed to be the recommended number - perhaps a generic
> > number, albeit for a different reason than you suggest. In other
> > words, not generic so as to cover a national audience, but generic
> > enough to cover the wide swings of weather conditions near the lakes.
>
> > In any case, the OP might want to do a little research and determine
> > if "just above freezing" is the correct temperature for his location.
>
> Another consideration is a safety factor. A building at 50 degrees will stay
> above freezing longer in a power failure than one at 32.1111 degrees. Not a
> big deal if comfort is the only consideration, but if keeping water from
> doing damage, you have to plan ahead a bit.
>
> I maintain a large (poorly insulated) building that is used for storage, but
> cannot freeze. Keeping it at 45 is good for at least 30 hours.

Don't let my kids see this post! They'll want me to turn up the
thermostat in the winter using the "we'll stay above freezing longer
in a power failure" excuse.

Shut up kid and go get another sweater. ;-)


Posted by Chris Lewis on November 1, 2007, 1:01 pm
> On Oct 31, 9:34 pm, cle...@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote:

> > Over thirty years ago, we found that some thermostats start
> > at around 50F with an offswitch, and others don't have an
> > offswitch, and start around 36F.
> >
> > We wanted the 36F ones to keep a cottage just above freezing.

> In reading some of the questions that get sent to the Home Repair
> section of our local newspaper, I think I recall something about
> issues with condensation if the temperature is kept below some magic
> number (50?).

This sort of thing is going to be very dependent on conditions.
Not just environmental, but building structure and ventilation.
As a simple example: our garage.

It's vapor-barriered (6 mil plastic) and insulated with decent attic
ventilation. When we moved in, the floor was just gravel. Unheated.
Approximately two days per year (usually in the fall), there was a
moisture problem that caused bare metal (eg: my tools) to begin to rust.
Visible condensation everywhere.

A few years later, we had a concrete floor put in with a layer of foam
board under it. Moisture/rust problems _completely_ disappeared. There
are now heaters in it, and I only turn them on when I'm going to be
working in the garage for extended periods during the winter. When the
heaters are off, the temperature in the garage can drop as low as -30C
or lower during the winter. Zero moisture problems (except when
the ceiling vapor barrier fatigued in a few places and fell through,
and the attic got too warm - icicles and condensation at the
ruptures.)

The cottage is similarly well insulated and vapor barriered (kraft
insulation). We heated the cottage itself to 4-5C. At first there
was a moisture issue _under_ the cottage - concrete block foundation,
dirt floor, and we also kept the pump area warmer by enclosing the
section with a double "curtain" of 6 mil plastic and a fan heater
modified to operate at around 5C. But that was eliminated by
power venting the crawl space outside of the "bagged" zone.

The only moisture deterioration problems were in the cottage ceiling due
to "cathedral ceiling" (2x6 Cedar T&G, 1" foam, sheathing then shingle -
no ventilation), no sunlight due to trees (roof stayed damp) and
(eventually) carpenter ants. Everything was torn off but the T&G,
"joists" were laid over the T&G, bat insulation with a 2" airgap
under the sheathing. Moisture problems eliminated.

Anyone saying "don't go lower than 50F" or something like that will
be doing a CYA because they don't know whether it really will cause
a problem or not. Whether it causes a problem is determined by
the building and weather conditions.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

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