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Having trouble soldering copper pipe eselk 10-23-2007
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Posted by Stormin Mormon on October 24, 2007, 5:09 pm

Could very well be, I'm not sure how to tell what the right amount of
heat is. I read that if it gets too hot, it will burn the flux, which
I guess causes problems. I know it is hot enough to melt the solder,
because on most attempts I've been removing the flame before applying
the solder, just to be 100% sure I'm not melting the solder with the
torch.

CY: Heat the other side of the pipe. Keep the solder in contact with the
crack between the fitting and the pipe. When it just barely flows, that's
enough heat. If at all possible, make all fittings horizontal.


When I've removed the elbow, most of the time I'm seeing a nice
coating of solder where the elbow was (inside), so it must be flowing
to the inside like it should. However, I usually do need to run the
solder around the pipe, not just touch it in one place and have it run
around the pipe "magicly" like I've heard about.

CY: H eat the bottom of the pipe, and touch the solder to the top. Run the
solder left and right, so it flows down both sides. For horizontal fittings,
when the solder drips otu the bottom, that's enough.

I've read different
methods, and some say to just apply the solder in one place and it
should run around all sides, and other people say to run the solder
around in a circle. Which is best/better/correct? I can't really get
to the far side very easy, so I guess just holding it in one place
would be nice, if I can get that to work.

CY: Ideally, it flows all around, but I usually apply solder all around,
manually.


Should the solder just stay inside and all the way around the pipe?

CY: Yes, it should stay inside and all around. Does, if the fitting is
bright clean, and very tight when you push it together. Sand the outside of
the pipe, and wire brush inside the fitting.

What I'm usually seeing is that some stays at the top, but more flows
towards the "bottom" (whichever way gravity pulls it). So I usually
do have solder all the way around, but a bit more in the direction
that gravity was pulling it.

CY: If the fitting is horizontal, apply enough solder so that it drips out
the bottom.

After reading the post by Heathcliff, I am starting to wonder if I'm
getting solder in the right place, but maybe water or air is flowing
through prematurely and creating narrow paths for the water to flow
through when I turn the water back on. I'm 99.9% sure there is no
water, but I hadn't thought about air.

CY: Well, never know.

The first thing I'll do when I try again tonight is to open the shower
faucet, that way air can escape that way, and also water if it boils
up that far (but again, I'm pretty positive there is no water).

CY: Good to leave a faucet on, after (downstream from) the fitting. That way
any pressure that builds up from the heating has an escape.




Posted by professorpaul on October 23, 2007, 1:06 pm
As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.

You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
inspection mirror.

I've found, when teaching people to solder, that they should PRACTICE
on some scrap stuff first to get good technique. In dealing with
plumbing, most of the problems are due to much too much heat. You just
want enough heat so that the solder just flows easily. Dirt is your
enemy. Emery paper, wire brushes, and steel wool are your best
friends. Flux simply serves to remove final bit of surface oxidation.

I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
later.

Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.

Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
pipe.

Hope this helps..


Posted by on October 23, 2007, 1:26 pm
> As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
> here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
> applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.

> You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
> items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
> excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
> if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
> observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
> inspection mirror.

O-boy, I may redo a couple of my other fittings after doing this. At
least the first two couplings I did, which are now closed off already,
looked really good. They didn't even leak the first time, but I redid
them anyway because I wasn't happy with the way they looked, and I
didn't want to open the wall again after I closed that part.

> I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
> solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
> are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
> lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
> residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
> later.

I think I started with an acid core solder, and those first two
couplings were that kind (they are already closed off, so I sure hope
I don't have problems with them). I got the one marked "premium" the
2nd time (I used a whole pound of solder doing the first two
couplings, until I learned how it should really be done, then only
needed the last few inches to do the job right). This "premium" says
something like "solid wire", don't have it in front of me, but I do
recall it didn't say "acid core" like the 1st one I had.

> Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
> then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.

Yes, I started doing this after a while, and it is a great idea.
Another plus is that I don't have as many burn marks on the sheetrock
and studs =] Just kiddin, I'm being safe.

> Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
> Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
> course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
> pipe.

I was thinking about trying something else (I read about "Sharkbites"
as well), but I think if I get to that point, I'll just call a
professional instead. I'm putting $500 worth of tile over this job,
and don't want to tear it out.


Posted by Bob F on October 23, 2007, 1:51 pm


> I was thinking about trying something else (I read about "Sharkbites"
> as well), but I think if I get to that point, I'll just call a
> professional instead. I'm putting $500 worth of tile over this job,
> and don't want to tear it out.
>

Since your problem seems to be on one joint, it is possible that the end or that
pipe is slightly out-of-round, causing the problem. Try replacing that one piece
and see if the problem goes away.

Bob



Posted by on October 23, 2007, 12:57 pm
> es...@surfbest.net wrote:
> > I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
> > 1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
> > one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
> > night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
> > tonight with a fresh mind, but...
>
> > One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
> > have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
> > solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
> > that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
> > off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
> > start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
> > got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
> > without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
> > like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
> > and not be able to continue.
>
> > The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
> > so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
> > trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
> > lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
> > doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
> > heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
> > ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
> > harden at the same time).
>
> > I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
> > before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
> > testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
> > wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
> > wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
> > other.
>
> At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......
>
> Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
> the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?
>
> Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
> pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
> and shiny copper?
>
> Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
> inside the elbows?
>
> Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
> should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
> while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"
>
> Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
> elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.
>
> HTH,
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeffry Wisnia
> (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
> The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper. Make sure you clean the inside of the new
fitting too and then apply flux. Using the wire brushes that are
made specifically for that is the best way. They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.



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