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Posted by Tony on November 3, 2009, 3:14 pm
Joe wrote:
>> Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things
>> easy, we did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting
>> it due to high heating and cooling costs. My original plans were
>> to stucco the outside of the block. It looks like 10 times the
>> work and a lot more money to put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then
>> wire lath, then stucco. Besides the obvious I'd have to tear out
>> and redo 3 windows, one door, and do something up top were the
>> stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to allow room for the foam
>> panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best insulation, but it
>> would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8" block (about
>> 1.11 r-value).
>>
>> My other choices of course include framing and insulation the
>> inside of the block walls.
>
> Really your most cost effective option.
>
>
> Given your problem I would contact an Icynene installer and price out
> 2 x 4 framing with 3 1/2" foam filling behind drywall (INSIDE). The
> way higher insulating value of such an installation will definitely
> have a reasonable payback period compared with the limited options
> you could do other wise. Your personal tax expert could also advise
> you of energy tax credits available to sweeten the project cost. Once
> the framing is in place you can add electrical outlets, water lines,
> air lines, whatever, prior to the foam operation. From an appearance
> standpoint this is also a win-win situation as no external changes
> will be obvious to your tax assessor. Forget about the attitude that
> it is 'only' a garage/workshop'. For the hours you will spend there,
> there is no common sense reason not to have heat and AC. My little
> 26' x 26' shop is heated/cooled and there is no way I would do
> otherwise. Projects get done more quickly, tools don't rust from
> excess humidity and list goes on. The shop is a major utility at our
> house, like laundry. And a money saver to boot.
By saying that it is "only" a garage/workshop was referring to the looks
of tapcons and fender washers. My last garage/workshop had heat and A/C
also and I don't consider it a luxury.
I called the 2 closest Icynene dealers (43 and 44 miles away) and I am
waiting for rough over the phone estimates, then next would be an on
site estimate, or maybe a price quote?
I understand the reasoning why the Icynene is so much better because it
fills in cracks and stops air infiltration, but in my last stick built
garage I believe I insulated it better than 99.9% of contractors, paying
very much attention and detail for the fiberglass to expand properly and
sealing off air infiltration and air convection currents on both sides
of the insulation. That was 24x32 sq', up in PA, and heat cost me $100
to $175 per winter. That was with a oil/hot air furnace from a mobile
home. It was left at 50-55F unoccupied and about 65 or more when
working in there. What I'm trying to say is that if I do fiberglass
myself, it will be far better than in the fiberglass/Icynene comparisons.
I'm still looking for an affordable heater that is approved for garage
use. In the old one I suppose I was lucky the place never burnt or the
insurance company could have blamed the non code heater. I have a
mobile home LP heater sitting in there, trying to find out if the
insurance company will approve its use. (like my other posts, there is
no building code to follow, I only have to go by what my insurance
company says.
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Posted by DD_BobK on November 2, 2009, 2:02 pm
> Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
> did the whole 1st floor block. =A0Now I'm really regretting it due to hig=
h
> heating and cooling costs. =A0My original plans were to stucco the outsid=
e
> of the block. =A0It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
> put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. =A0Besides the
> obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
> something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
> allow room for the foam panels. =A0I know the foam panels aren't the best
> insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
> block (about 1.11 r-value).
> My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
> the block walls. =A0Or maybe the foam panels outside with something else
> besides stucco covering it? =A0I suppose it doesn't have to look as nice
> as I had hoped since only the front with 2 garage doors will really
> show. =A0With the garage doors covering most of the square footage of the
> front wall, I could still just stucco that part right over the block.
> What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and
> cover it with drywall. =A0But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound lik=
e
> fun? =A0What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels which is also
> glued to the block, and just had a few screws to hold until the glue set
> up. =A0I'm picturing blue screws with fender washers, not a pretty sight,
> but it is just a garage/workshop.
> Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.
The "fix" (or fixes) at this point depend heavily on environmental
conditions where the garage is located.
AZ or OR...(I'm too lazy to look up your IP address)
Who did the design & who signed off on the plans? Did the designer
know the garage was to be heated & cooled?
How much of the garage is actually below grade?
The key to how successful the fix you choose is............. how well
it handles the local moisture conditions. Just throwing up some
insulation & drywall may cause more problems. :(
btw are the blocks filled or hollow? If currently hollow, filling
with perlite "might" be an alternative but I doubt it will improve
the situation a great deal. :(
Just a SWAG but I think (if unfilled) you'll go from an R of about
1.5 to maybe 5 by adding perlite.
If the blocks are filled (grouted) you've got an R of about .6
and no way to add cavity insulation.
good luck
cheers
Bob
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Posted by Tony on November 3, 2009, 3:31 pm
DD_BobK wrote:
>> Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
>> did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting it due to high
>> heating and cooling costs. My original plans were to stucco the outside
>> of the block. It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
>> put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. Besides the
>> obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
>> something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
>> allow room for the foam panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best
>> insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
>> block (about 1.11 r-value).
>> My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
>> the block walls. Or maybe the foam panels outside with something else
>> besides stucco covering it? I suppose it doesn't have to look as nice
>> as I had hoped since only the front with 2 garage doors will really
>> show. With the garage doors covering most of the square footage of the
>> front wall, I could still just stucco that part right over the block.
>> What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and
>> cover it with drywall. But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like
>> fun? What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels which is also
>> glued to the block, and just had a few screws to hold until the glue set
>> up. I'm picturing blue screws with fender washers, not a pretty sight,
>> but it is just a garage/workshop.
>> Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.
>
> The "fix" (or fixes) at this point depend heavily on environmental
> conditions where the garage is located.
> AZ or OR...(I'm too lazy to look up your IP address)
East Tennessee.
> Who did the design & who signed off on the plans?
I did. We have no building code.
> Did the designer
> know the garage was to be heated & cooled?
He was a numb nuts and didn't think ahead.
> How much of the garage is actually below grade?
Less then 1/4... about 1/6th.
> The key to how successful the fix you choose is............. how well
> it handles the local moisture conditions. Just throwing up some
> insulation & drywall may cause more problems. :(
Before the soil was graded, after some very heavy rains, 3 blocks showed
moisture. Since the grading was finished, and still no gutter it hasn't
got wet and we had some very heavy rains. It will have gutters soon anyway.
> btw are the blocks filled or hollow? If currently hollow, filling
> with perlite "might" be an alternative but I doubt it will improve
> the situation a great deal. :(
Every 4' is rebar and filled with concrete. On the side that is about
1/2 under grade is 12" block. I had some extra concrete and rebar so
that wall is filled every 2'.
> Just a SWAG but I think (if unfilled) you'll go from an R of about
> 1.5 to maybe 5 by adding perlite.
I was looking for this figure on a web page and couldn't find it. Even
if all of it was filled with perlite, it's hard to believe it making
that much difference, but that's just my guess.
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Posted by dadiOH on November 2, 2009, 4:06 pm
Tony wrote:
> What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam
> on the inside and cover it with drywall.
That's the norm where I live.
> But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like fun?
Uhhh...one attaches 3/4 x 1 1/2 PT to the block wall. Air nailer works
nice.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
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Posted by Tony on November 3, 2009, 3:33 pm
dadiOH wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>
>> What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam
>> on the inside and cover it with drywall.
>
> That's the norm where I live.
>
>> But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like fun?
>
> Uhhh...one attaches 3/4 x 1 1/2 PT to the block wall. Air nailer works
> nice.
That makes sense, can you tell I'm not a builder? ;-)
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>> easy, we did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting
>> it due to high heating and cooling costs. My original plans were
>> to stucco the outside of the block. It looks like 10 times the
>> work and a lot more money to put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then
>> wire lath, then stucco. Besides the obvious I'd have to tear out
>> and redo 3 windows, one door, and do something up top were the
>> stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to allow room for the foam
>> panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best insulation, but it
>> would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8" block (about
>> 1.11 r-value).
>>
>> My other choices of course include framing and insulation the
>> inside of the block walls.