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Light Switch & Fixture Problem

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Light Switch & Fixture Problem tomg 01-25-2008
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Posted by buffalobill on January 25, 2008, 7:10 am
On Jan 25, 1:42 am, t...@fullnet.com wrote:
> A friend asked me to help her repair her bathroom light switch, which
> had stopped working. By the time I got there, she had already
> installed a new switch, but it still wouldn't work. .It's a one-way
> switch, controlling two wall fixtures.
>
> The house (which is in the USA) is about sixty years old and has two-
> prong plugs, everywhere. The light switch has two screws, with a
> black wire to each screw. There are two white wires in the switch
> box, spliced together (and they had obviously been that way for many
> years). One lamp fixture has two black and two white wires, with the
> two blacks connected to the fixture's black wire and the two whites
> connected to the fixture's white wire. The other fixture has one
> white and one black going to it. So far, so good. Apparently, the
> fixtures' wiring is somewhat newer than the rest of the house's
> wiring, because they also each have a ground, which is connected to
> each box, mounting plate, and fixture housing.
>
> I couldn't see anything that was obviously wrong. And the light
> fixtures and the old switch had been working for years. So I used my
> multimeter (Tektronix DMM916) and did some very basic measurements,
> but will probably need to go back and do some more. Anyway, here is
> what I have measured, so far:
>
> With the switch on, and no bulbs installed in the fixtures, the
> voltage (VAC RMS) across the switch terminals is very low, i.e.
> approx .04 VAC. At each fixture, white-to-ground measured 54 VAC,
> black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured 34 VAC.
>
> WITH bulbs installed, and the switch ON, both white-to-ground and
> black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured anywhere
> from 14.6 VAC to 18VAC on the first fixture and about .04 VAC on the
> second fixture.
>
> But, after emptying some dead insects out of the first fixture, it,
> too, measured .04 VAC from black-to-white. (I neglected to measure it
> again, without bulbs, to see if the 34VAC from black-to-white had then
> changed.) The black-to-white measurements without bulbs also matched
> the measurements between the socket bases and threaded bulb holders.
>
> With the switch OFF (both before and after emptying-out the insects in
> the first fixture), the voltage across the switch terminals (two
> blacks) was about 70 to 76 VAC (varied between measurements).
>
> Also, with the switch off, the resistances, at the fixtures, between
> any two of black, white, and ground all appeared to be infinite, as
> did the resistances between the socket bases and threaded portions..
>
> Can anyone figure out what's going on, from that? Or, what else
> should I measure, or try?
>
> Could it be a problem in the breaker box, itself? I did happen to
> notice, about six months ago, that her breaker box was open, slightly
> (not the door, the whole front panel!). But it appears to be closed-
> up OK, now. The breakers look very old, though. Also, everything
> else in the house appears to be working as it always has. And that
> circuit does not have its own breaker.
>
> Any DIY suggestions will be appreciated.
>
> - Tom Gootee

buffalo ny: broken wire at new switch, forgot to turn power back on,
circuit breaker must be turned fully off then on, you might find and
reset an upstream GFI, you might change the light bulbs with tested
working bulbs. but first get your clipboard out and take notes for
your future use, perhaps a floor plan with circuit numbers for each
floor of the building.
unscrew the bulbs and identify the circuits. find the breakers and
label the outlet and switch covers to match the breaker numbers
stamped into the breaker box metal. do this throughout the house as
you test the outlets with radios of the type that go on when plugged
into a live outlet. and portable lamps with regular bulbs not just a
voltmeter. with one hand in your pocket and the other hand writing a
check to an electrician, ask him to show you how he checks the power
under the panel cover safely as he measures the proper voltage at the
hot to common 110vac arriving in the panel, and hot-to-hot for 220vac
if available.
the common white is usually grounded to earth ground at the panel but
that location may vary. black screw outputs at a fuse or breaker
output should have 110vac measured to common white. the half-
voltages you are measuring might be due to a fluorescent or
transformer or motor or compressor or pump with a ground fault
problem. unplug these devices if on your bathroom circuit to see.
also, the power to the bath could arrive from anywhere even a
different meter or a mystery feed from the garage that the neighbor
wired to his meter fifty years ago when he rented it from the previous
homeowner. -b

AppliancePartsPros.com, Inc.
Posted by RBM on January 25, 2008, 7:16 am
You need to check voltage from the hot wire on the switch to the two
neutrals that are spliced together. If you get 120 v, you have an open
neutral between that box and the first lighting outlet. If you don't get
120v, you have an open neutral wire somewhere upstream of the switch box. I
would check nearby outlets and switches for the bad connection. It could be
an upstream GFCI, if one exists, but not likely as that would disconnect the
hot leg to your circuit.



>A friend asked me to help her repair her bathroom light switch, which
> had stopped working. By the time I got there, she had already
> installed a new switch, but it still wouldn't work. .It's a one-way
> switch, controlling two wall fixtures.
>
> The house (which is in the USA) is about sixty years old and has two-
> prong plugs, everywhere. The light switch has two screws, with a
> black wire to each screw. There are two white wires in the switch
> box, spliced together (and they had obviously been that way for many
> years). One lamp fixture has two black and two white wires, with the
> two blacks connected to the fixture's black wire and the two whites
> connected to the fixture's white wire. The other fixture has one
> white and one black going to it. So far, so good. Apparently, the
> fixtures' wiring is somewhat newer than the rest of the house's
> wiring, because they also each have a ground, which is connected to
> each box, mounting plate, and fixture housing.
>
> I couldn't see anything that was obviously wrong. And the light
> fixtures and the old switch had been working for years. So I used my
> multimeter (Tektronix DMM916) and did some very basic measurements,
> but will probably need to go back and do some more. Anyway, here is
> what I have measured, so far:
>
> With the switch on, and no bulbs installed in the fixtures, the
> voltage (VAC RMS) across the switch terminals is very low, i.e.
> approx .04 VAC. At each fixture, white-to-ground measured 54 VAC,
> black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured 34 VAC.
>
> WITH bulbs installed, and the switch ON, both white-to-ground and
> black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured anywhere
> from 14.6 VAC to 18VAC on the first fixture and about .04 VAC on the
> second fixture.
>
> But, after emptying some dead insects out of the first fixture, it,
> too, measured .04 VAC from black-to-white. (I neglected to measure it
> again, without bulbs, to see if the 34VAC from black-to-white had then
> changed.) The black-to-white measurements without bulbs also matched
> the measurements between the socket bases and threaded bulb holders.
>
> With the switch OFF (both before and after emptying-out the insects in
> the first fixture), the voltage across the switch terminals (two
> blacks) was about 70 to 76 VAC (varied between measurements).
>
> Also, with the switch off, the resistances, at the fixtures, between
> any two of black, white, and ground all appeared to be infinite, as
> did the resistances between the socket bases and threaded portions..
>
> Can anyone figure out what's going on, from that? Or, what else
> should I measure, or try?
>
> Could it be a problem in the breaker box, itself? I did happen to
> notice, about six months ago, that her breaker box was open, slightly
> (not the door, the whole front panel!). But it appears to be closed-
> up OK, now. The breakers look very old, though. Also, everything
> else in the house appears to be working as it always has. And that
> circuit does not have its own breaker.
>
> Any DIY suggestions will be appreciated.
>
> - Tom Gootee



Posted by John Grabowski on January 25, 2008, 9:14 am

> You need to check voltage from the hot wire on the switch to the two
> neutrals that are spliced together. If you get 120 v, you have an open
> neutral between that box and the first lighting outlet. If you don't get
> 120v, you have an open neutral wire somewhere upstream of the switch box.
I
> would check nearby outlets and switches for the bad connection. It could
be
> an upstream GFCI, if one exists, but not likely as that would disconnect
the
> hot leg to your circuit.
>
>
>
> >A friend asked me to help her repair her bathroom light switch, which
> > had stopped working. By the time I got there, she had already
> > installed a new switch, but it still wouldn't work. .It's a one-way
> > switch, controlling two wall fixtures.
> >
> > The house (which is in the USA) is about sixty years old and has two-
> > prong plugs, everywhere. The light switch has two screws, with a
> > black wire to each screw. There are two white wires in the switch
> > box, spliced together (and they had obviously been that way for many
> > years). One lamp fixture has two black and two white wires, with the
> > two blacks connected to the fixture's black wire and the two whites
> > connected to the fixture's white wire. The other fixture has one
> > white and one black going to it. So far, so good. Apparently, the
> > fixtures' wiring is somewhat newer than the rest of the house's
> > wiring, because they also each have a ground, which is connected to
> > each box, mounting plate, and fixture housing.
> >
> > I couldn't see anything that was obviously wrong. And the light
> > fixtures and the old switch had been working for years. So I used my
> > multimeter (Tektronix DMM916) and did some very basic measurements,
> > but will probably need to go back and do some more. Anyway, here is
> > what I have measured, so far:
> >
> > With the switch on, and no bulbs installed in the fixtures, the
> > voltage (VAC RMS) across the switch terminals is very low, i.e.
> > approx .04 VAC. At each fixture, white-to-ground measured 54 VAC,
> > black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured 34 VAC.
> >
> > WITH bulbs installed, and the switch ON, both white-to-ground and
> > black-to-ground measured 120 VAC, and black-to-white measured anywhere
> > from 14.6 VAC to 18VAC on the first fixture and about .04 VAC on the
> > second fixture.
> >
> > But, after emptying some dead insects out of the first fixture, it,
> > too, measured .04 VAC from black-to-white. (I neglected to measure it
> > again, without bulbs, to see if the 34VAC from black-to-white had then
> > changed.) The black-to-white measurements without bulbs also matched
> > the measurements between the socket bases and threaded bulb holders.
> >
> > With the switch OFF (both before and after emptying-out the insects in
> > the first fixture), the voltage across the switch terminals (two
> > blacks) was about 70 to 76 VAC (varied between measurements).
> >
> > Also, with the switch off, the resistances, at the fixtures, between
> > any two of black, white, and ground all appeared to be infinite, as
> > did the resistances between the socket bases and threaded portions..
> >
> > Can anyone figure out what's going on, from that? Or, what else
> > should I measure, or try?
> >
> > Could it be a problem in the breaker box, itself? I did happen to
> > notice, about six months ago, that her breaker box was open, slightly
> > (not the door, the whole front panel!). But it appears to be closed-
> > up OK, now. The breakers look very old, though. Also, everything
> > else in the house appears to be working as it always has. And that
> > circuit does not have its own breaker.
> >


In addition to what RBM said, I would suggest that you stop using that
multimeter and just use a pigtail socket and standard light bulb to test the
wires. The results will be more definitive. All of those odd voltages that
a multimeter displays just confuses a do-it-yourselfer.


Posted by Ralph Mowery on January 25, 2008, 11:04 am

>> In addition to what RBM said, I would suggest that you stop using that
> multimeter and just use a pigtail socket and standard light bulb to test
> the
> wires. The results will be more definitive. All of those odd voltages
> that
> a multimeter displays just confuses a do-it-yourselfer.
>

Those digital meters are about the worse test device a home owner can use.
They do seem to give all kind of funny voltages, even when there is no real
connection involved. That is probably where the 54 and 34 volts are comming
from . Also that .04 volts is not worth mentioning, just say zero volts.

I work as an electrician and instrument technician at a large plant. I have
a $ 300 digital meter, but mostly use the old Simpson 260 analog meter for
simple tests. I have also used the light bulb and pigtail. Usually get
laughed at by the co-workers when I pull that out, but it usually finds the
problem where the others fail with their digital meters.

You have to know what to expect when using any test device.



Posted by Smitty Two on January 25, 2008, 12:45 pm

> You have to know what to expect when using any test device.

No shit. They should make you take a basic comprehension test of circuit
fundamentals before they sell you one of those things. Why do people
think they can use a meter in any useful way without understanding what
the hell they're doing? The OP could be using an ignition timing light
and learn about the same amount of useful information about that pesky
circuit as he knows now with all his 34 volts and 0.04 volt stuff.

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