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My old house wiring -- Sparks flying, plugs dying, computer being destroyed?

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My old house wiring -- Sparks flying, plugs dying, computer being destroyed? stars1234 12-28-2006
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Posted by stars1234 on December 28, 2006, 3:20 pm


History:

In a ealier topic, I wrote of my old house, built in 1952 + remodeled
by someone who knew even less than I. It has no grounds and is a
general mess, I think even according to code back then -people tell
me the electrician and the building inspector were "friends."

Thirty years ago, when I bought this house, the person inspecting it as
well as myself saw the standard, three prong, grounded outlets and
thought all was okay; but he didn't check to make sure they worked
and I was too young to know to tell him to. After all, he was the
inspector.

It wasn't until sometime later; when I found a few, two slot,
non-grounded outlets, I became suspicious. And my suspicions are
correct. Someone replaced nearly all the outlets with three prong,
polarized, grounded ones, but no ground to connect them to and no way
to fish a ground to them.

Here's Today's problems and a few questions:

I got a laptop computer for Christmas. It uses an AC to DC adapter
(transformer) to get power and recharge the computer's batteries.

Unlike most modern electronics, this one has a non-polarized socket for
the charger and the power cord is non-polarized, non-grounded too.
Neither is there any kind of marking, such as a white stripe along the
cord that lets me know which is the hot/neutral side. From what I've
read, a white stripe usually indicates it is the polarized side (the
neutral) and goes into the longer slot on the wall socket. The longer
slot is always neutral. Is that right?

The instructions say, plug the charger into the computer and then that
into the wall socket.
When I did it, there was an arc from the wall socket's left slot. I
thought that's strange. (This is one of the three prong, polarized,
grounded (but not really) sockets.)

I left it plugged in for a day or so. I unplugged it. Later, when I
plugged it back in, without paying attention to the orientation of the
plug, there was no spark. I thought, "strange," again. So, I flipped
the power cord plug over, plugged it in that way and sure enough, a
spark from the left slot of the wall socket. --bright blue and snappy.

Obviously, the left (tall) slot of the wall socket is hot (which I
think is backwards according to code?). And with no white stripe on
the power cord that plugs into the transformer, then no polarized
socket on the computer: two round holes, instead of a square and round,
I can't tell which is hot/neutral and what should go where, but I
sure didn't like the arc at the wall socket.

Looking at the power cord's plug, the tip of the prong that got the
zap, is a bit black and melted.
Of course, I don't want to destroy the very expensive computer.

1) Does it matter which way the power cord goes into the outlet?
With nothing polarized, I don't know what to do. Or does it matter?

Spark, no spark? destroy my computer or is it okay, no matter which
way it goes into the AC?


2) Further checking the wall sockets, looking at them from the front
(ground down), I find some take a polarized plug's neutral prong, (I
think that the wide one), fits into the wall socket's tall, left
slot; for others wall sockets though, the tall slot is on the right. .


I assume that the wall sockets that take it on the right are turned
upside down, so no harm done-as long as it's wired correctly.
(I'm off to Lowes to get an outlet checker.)


3) I tested a three prong, polarized, grounded (but not really), duplex
socket with my VOM (battery powered) for voltage. I pushed one probe
into the short slot, the other into the long (left) slot.

When I put the probe into the left slot-Pow! A nice, blue arc from
the tip of it into the slot.
I tried it again and the same thing happened. I switched the
probes-no arc. I was surprised by that since I thought with AC, as
long as the VOM is set to AC, it doesn't matter which way the +-
probes go.

Since the arcing distracted me, I failed to get the voltage. I tried
my VOM once more.

This time, when I put the probe into the left slot there was a big
flash. My VOM went dead-is dead-- and so is the wall outlet. Now,
I have to go by a new VOM, new wall socket. Funny that the fuse
didn't blow in the VOM nor did a circuit breaker trip.

Ideas on what may have happened and how do I fix it?

Most importantly though, any damage being done to the computer?

--more threads on my old house wiring, coming.

Bob T


Plumbing 468x60
Posted by on December 28, 2006, 3:36 pm


Breakers or fuses? If breakers how old? If it's the original stuff,
it's too old and you need a new electrical panel. And most likely some
more circuits.
Is the wire run in armored cable? If so then you do have a ground and
can most likely just use that as your ground.


Posted by avid_hiker on December 28, 2006, 3:55 pm



> 3) I tested a three prong, polarized, grounded (but not really), duplex
> socket with my VOM (battery powered) for voltage. I pushed one probe
> into the short slot, the other into the long (left) slot.
>
> When I put the probe into the left slot-Pow! A nice, blue arc from
> the tip of it into the slot.
> I tried it again and the same thing happened. I switched the
> probes-no arc. I was surprised by that since I thought with AC, as
> long as the VOM is set to AC, it doesn't matter which way the +-
> probes go.
>


Sounds like you have your hands full............thats for sure. If
using a VOM.......be sure to set the dial to the desired range first
and be sure that the probes are in the correct meter slots for checking
AC. The different settings have different impedances. But you are
correct......you should be able to put the probes in either slot.

What you are stating makes no sense at all to me.......I am not an
Electrician....but an Engineer in a Hospital setting. What do the other
outlets do, read?..the same thing....spark?? Sounds like maybe you
should rewire the whole house properly with new breaker box and get it
over with. If the probes and/or computer plug melted....then the fuse
or breaker should have tripped.......no? Thats alot of current to melt
metal!!

You should run the proper wire yourself to save a few bucks, then have
the electrician hook it all up to the new box. Definetly worth it in
your case. Sounds like a future house fire is in the making here.


Posted by Rich256 on December 28, 2006, 3:56 pm


stars1234 wrote:

Deleted some of the history.

>
> Unlike most modern electronics, this one has a non-polarized socket for
> the charger and the power cord is non-polarized, non-grounded too.
> Neither is there any kind of marking, such as a white stripe along the
> cord that lets me know which is the hot/neutral side. From what I've
> read, a white stripe usually indicates it is the polarized side (the
> neutral) and goes into the longer slot on the wall socket. The longer
> slot is always neutral. Is that right?

Correct. However, a polarized connection is not necessary for the
charger. It does not know the difference.


>
> The instructions say, plug the charger into the computer and then that
> into the wall socket.
> When I did it, there was an arc from the wall socket's left slot. I
> thought that's strange. (This is one of the three prong, polarized,
> grounded (but not really) sockets.)

Now that worries me.
>
> I left it plugged in for a day or so. I unplugged it. Later, when I
> plugged it back in, without paying attention to the orientation of the
> plug, there was no spark. I thought, "strange," again. So, I flipped
> the power cord plug over, plugged it in that way and sure enough, a
> spark from the left slot of the wall socket. --bright blue and snappy.
> Obviously, the left (tall) slot of the wall socket is hot (which I
> think is backwards according to code?). And with no white stripe on
> the power cord that plugs into the transformer, then no polarized
> socket on the computer: two round holes, instead of a square and round,
> I can't tell which is hot/neutral and what should go where, but I
> sure didn't like the arc at the wall socket.

Arcs should not happen under any condition. The presence of an arc has
no relationship as to which line is hot. That is unless you are
shorting a ground to the wires.
>
> Looking at the power cord's plug, the tip of the prong that got the
> zap, is a bit black and melted.
> Of course, I don't want to destroy the very expensive computer.
>

My thoughts are that there is something wrong with the socket. Perhaps
a loose wire.




> 1) Does it matter which way the power cord goes into the outlet?
> With nothing polarized, I don't know what to do. Or does it matter?

No. It should not make any difference.


> Spark, no spark? destroy my computer or is it okay, no matter which
> way it goes into the AC?
>
>
> 2) Further checking the wall sockets, looking at them from the front
> (ground down), I find some take a polarized plug's neutral prong, (I
> think that the wide one), fits into the wall socket's tall, left
> slot; for others wall sockets though, the tall slot is on the right. .
>

Orientation is not important. What is important is how the sockets were
wired. If your wire has the proper color code the hot should be black
and the neutral should be white. Black connected to the narrow slot and
white to the wide.


>
> I assume that the wall sockets that take it on the right are turned
> upside down, so no harm done-as long as it's wired correctly.
> (I'm off to Lowes to get an outlet checker.)
>

Correct. No problem

>
> 3) I tested a three prong, polarized, grounded (but not really), duplex
> socket with my VOM (battery powered) for voltage. I pushed one probe
> into the short slot, the other into the long (left) slot.
>
> When I put the probe into the left slot-Pow! A nice, blue arc from
> the tip of it into the slot.

Not a good test. You should not be drawing any current to speak of
through your meter. That is unless you have it on a current measurement
setting. Then I would expect you would blow something.


> I tried it again and the same thing happened. I switched the
> probes-no arc. I was surprised by that since I thought with AC, as
> long as the VOM is set to AC, it doesn't matter which way the +-
> probes go.
>
> Since the arcing distracted me, I failed to get the voltage. I tried
> my VOM once more.
>
> This time, when I put the probe into the left slot there was a big
> flash. My VOM went dead-is dead-- and so is the wall outlet. Now,
> I have to go by a new VOM, new wall socket. Funny that the fuse
> didn't blow in the VOM nor did a circuit breaker trip.
>
Again I have to guess that there was something wrong inside the VOM.
You blew the line open before the circuit breaker had time to trip.


> Ideas on what may have happened and how do I fix it?
>
> Most importantly though, any damage being done to the computer?

I would hold off until I find out what the voltages are doing.

I think you must have had a short inside the VOM all along.

To verify which line is hot and which is neutral I would us a jumper to
get the negative lead of my vom hooked to a ground such as a water pipe.
Then you should read 110 on the hot line. If you are using a high
impedance meter you might see some voltage on the neutral but not very high.


Posted by dpb on December 28, 2006, 4:44 pm



Rich256 wrote:
> stars1234 wrote:
>
> Deleted some of the history.
>
...

> Arcs should not happen under any condition. The presence of an arc has
> no relationship as to which line is hot. That is unless you are
> shorting a ground to the wires.

Could be charging blocking cap and is causing some. Or perhaps the
reversing polarity is discharging a cap when into the neutral which is
at ground.

...
> > 3) I tested a three prong, polarized, grounded (but not really), duplex
> > socket with my VOM (battery powered) for voltage. I pushed one probe
> > into the short slot, the other into the long (left) slot.
> >
> > When I put the probe into the left slot-Pow! A nice, blue arc from
> > the tip of it into the slot.
>
> Not a good test. You should not be drawing any current to speak of
> through your meter. That is unless you have it on a current measurement
> setting. Then I would expect you would blow something.
...

> > This time, when I put the probe into the left slot there was a big
> > flash. My VOM went dead-is dead-- and so is the wall outlet. Now,
> > I have to go by a new VOM, new wall socket. Funny that the fuse
> > didn't blow in the VOM nor did a circuit breaker trip.

Are you sure it didn't blow the VOM fuse? Normally they would only be
a fraction of an amp. I'd double check it.

My bet is w/ the likelihood you were either on a continuity or current
or input range by accident.

Except for the floating ground introduced w/ the use of a grounding
outlet w/ a two-wire service, there really isn't anything so
bad-sounding on the house here except it sounds like there might be
crossed neutrals and hots if the receptacles weren't installed
correctly (or at least consistently). I'd do a certainty check on that
for all of them and I'd do it visually rather than relying on an
inexpensive tester -- I've seen cases where some weren't terribly
reliable.


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