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New Thoughts on basement mildew j 06-18-2005
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Posted by j on June 19, 2005, 2:08 pm
Hi,

Thanks for all the feedback. I don't think I have a problem, but I am
wondering if there is low tech method to check the temp of the inside versus
the outside. I am thinking just a few data points over the week with a
thermometer outside and one inside? Does it need to be on the wall?

I think I am looking for general best-practices if one is in the planning
stages for re-finishing the basement. Unfortunately, the basement only has
one door to outside, but no windows.

As for best practice, using a de-humidifer appears to be a good one for the
list. I have a sump-pump and that could be used to get water out. True? That
is where a/c for house dumps it water.

I had seen in a mag some type of flooring material to put over concrete
floor and then just thought maybe there were other best-practice
construction ideas.

But, it sounds like some solutions might not be good, but depend on the
problem. Not clear I have a problem, though.

Any other comments welcome. Thanks for your time and advice.

Thanks.

JIm

> Nick, you scare me.
>
> Move to South Carolina and try your idea here. Then after your house
> rots down, you can move back up north.
>
> It does not matter what the RH differaece is unless the temperature is
> the same when you ventilate. If the humidity ratio(in grains of water
> per pound of dry air) is higher outside than it is inside, you DO NOT
> want to ventillate! If the humidity ratio is lower outside than
> inside, then ventilating MAY do the trick. Either way, you MUST be
> sure that the surface temperatures in the basement are ABOVE the dew
> point of the air present. If the air outside is dryer than the air
> inside, but the wall temperatures in the basement is still below the
> outside air dew point, ventillation WILL NOT HELP!!!!!!!!!
>
> A dehumidifier will use more electricity, but is not likely to damage
> anything. Using fans with an improper control system can rot the walls
> out!!! The cost of repairing the walls will be MUCH HIGHER than the
> cost of the electricity saved!
>
> In order to determine the proper fix for the OP problem, I would want
> to check the weathe data for his area, measure the wall temperatures
> over time with data loggers and measure the humidity inside and outside
> over time with data loggers. He will be safe, if a littel poorer with
> a dehumidifier, assuming he drains it outside or into a proper drain.
> Using your RH sensor scheme may destroy his house!!!
>
> I can't see how you can recommend such an option without measuring the
> conditions inside and outside his house with data loggers and his wood
> moisture in the basement walls using a wood moisture meter.
>
> You have lots of nifty formulas Nick, but seem to have no idea on
> proper practical application. Here in the "land of the midnight
> fungus", recommending ventillation to solve such a problem is
> downright irresponsible!
>
> Please remember Nick, most people with mosture problems do not live in
> dry climates! Therefore dehumidifiers are usually a better solution to
> high humidity than exhaust fans.
>
> By the way, if he installs a $250.00 dehumidifier instead of a
> $1,000.00 Humidex exhaust fan, the money he saves on equipment will be
> enough to pay for dehumidifier electricity for many, many years!! And
> his walls will be safe!
>
> Please start recommending practical solutions that are climate
> specific, instead of your pie in the sky (unless it is cherry pie)
> control schemes requiring computers and more psychrometric knowledge
> than the homeowner is likely to ever possess.
>
> Stretch
>



Posted by j on June 19, 2005, 2:10 pm
Hi again,

Forgot to mention we are on East Coast in Maryland. It does get humid in
summer. Winter not too cold, but humidity is always up there during the peak
of summer.

Thanks.

JIm

> Nick, you scare me.
>
> Move to South Carolina and try your idea here. Then after your house
> rots down, you can move back up north.
>
> It does not matter what the RH differaece is unless the temperature is
> the same when you ventilate. If the humidity ratio(in grains of water
> per pound of dry air) is higher outside than it is inside, you DO NOT
> want to ventillate! If the humidity ratio is lower outside than
> inside, then ventilating MAY do the trick. Either way, you MUST be
> sure that the surface temperatures in the basement are ABOVE the dew
> point of the air present. If the air outside is dryer than the air
> inside, but the wall temperatures in the basement is still below the
> outside air dew point, ventillation WILL NOT HELP!!!!!!!!!
>
> A dehumidifier will use more electricity, but is not likely to damage
> anything. Using fans with an improper control system can rot the walls
> out!!! The cost of repairing the walls will be MUCH HIGHER than the
> cost of the electricity saved!
>
> In order to determine the proper fix for the OP problem, I would want
> to check the weathe data for his area, measure the wall temperatures
> over time with data loggers and measure the humidity inside and outside
> over time with data loggers. He will be safe, if a littel poorer with
> a dehumidifier, assuming he drains it outside or into a proper drain.
> Using your RH sensor scheme may destroy his house!!!
>
> I can't see how you can recommend such an option without measuring the
> conditions inside and outside his house with data loggers and his wood
> moisture in the basement walls using a wood moisture meter.
>
> You have lots of nifty formulas Nick, but seem to have no idea on
> proper practical application. Here in the "land of the midnight
> fungus", recommending ventillation to solve such a problem is
> downright irresponsible!
>
> Please remember Nick, most people with mosture problems do not live in
> dry climates! Therefore dehumidifiers are usually a better solution to
> high humidity than exhaust fans.
>
> By the way, if he installs a $250.00 dehumidifier instead of a
> $1,000.00 Humidex exhaust fan, the money he saves on equipment will be
> enough to pay for dehumidifier electricity for many, many years!! And
> his walls will be safe!
>
> Please start recommending practical solutions that are climate
> specific, instead of your pie in the sky (unless it is cherry pie)
> control schemes requiring computers and more psychrometric knowledge
> than the homeowner is likely to ever possess.
>
> Stretch
>



Posted by on June 20, 2005, 7:54 pm

>...if he installs a $250.00 dehumidifier instead of a $1,000.00 Humidex
>exhaust fan, the money he saves on equipment will be enough to pay for
>dehumidifier electricity for many, many years!!

A Smart Vent seems like a much better solution to me.

> From: sales@smartvent.net
> To: nick pine
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 1:29 PM
>
> We recently received data from an outside, independent year-long
> investigation of a Smartvent equipped crawl space. Data was collected
> every 4 hours.
>
> Crawl space humidity averaged 46% for the year.
>
> If you would like information about our new HI-IQ ventilator that
> pressurizes a home or commercial building with fresh, filtered outdoor
> air, let us know. This is the preferred approach throughout most of the
> US. In fact, the HI-IQ is the only residential ventilation system that
> measures outdoor weather. This product also uses our patented vapor
> technology, outperforms ERVs HRVs and at 1/3rd the installed cost.
>
> Used throughout the US, from Florida to Alaska, one Smartvent crawl space
> ventilator usually will handle about 1800 sqft. In some cases, special
> designs with extra fans are employed. In Hawaii, a 6400sqft crawl space
> has additional Smartvent fans and an internal fan as well, all controlled
> by one Smartvent main unit. Coastal areas usually need double capacity.
>
> Take a look at the attachment enclosed with this email. It may shed some
> light on better ventilation. Few understand the capacity of vapor
> pressure based ventilation. Other foundation vents are usually closed by
> hand (not sealed), and air will leak through the louvers of all your vents
> when the Smartvent runs, rather than just the closest vents.
>
> Virtually all passively ventilated crawl spaces throughout the entire US
> exceed 90% RH throughout the summer, so mold and moisture damage are
> serious issues.
>
> High humidity in crawl spaces assists growth of molds, spores, and
> bacteria. Under a vapor barrier, the humidity is 100%. About the only way
> to keep these from migrating into the home is to cut the moisture and
> ventilate, slightly depressurizing the crawl space.
>
> Since a crawl space is never cleaned there are dead Ocrittersı, critter
> droppings, etc. There may be radon or chemicals in the crawl space.
> Gases from all these sources will migrate into the home unless exhausted
> to the outside, replaced with fresh air.
>
> On our web site, http://www.smartvent.netcrawlspacevent.htm if you look at
> the Crawl Space Moisture Control Study, its chart on page 2, you will see
> airborne water vapor is a controlling factor in crawl space humidity.
> Measuring only humidity is likely to aggravate a moisture problem. The
> original Smartvent that generated the information for the Crawl Space
> Moisture Study produced about 90-100 cfm. The new model has been measured
> at 295CFM, has upgraded software, and is considerably more effective.
>
> To compare the Smartvent with other systems, the Smartvent is the only
> system to compare inside and outside water vapor content. Some other
> systems have fans on timers, some operate by measuring crawl space
> humidity. Both systems are likely to make crawl space humidity worse.
>
> Installation is fast, installing a foundation vent with clear, outdoor, 35
> or 50yr caulk; looks good, cleans up easy. We provide a 6' power cord
> that you plug into a 120 volt receptacle in your crawl space. That is all
> the wiring you need, no remote mounting required.
>
> Dimensions of the Smartvent are 15 1/4 x 7 7/8 x 8, just slightly smaller
> than a concrete block. A Smartvent costs only about $8.00 a year to operate.
>
> You can purchase the Smartvent directly. The Smartvent is $365. We ship
> upon receipt of a check, or UPS C.O.D at $8 extra. A two year replacement
> warranty is in place. For a C.O.D. shipment, email us the address, and
> we likely will ship same day. Note that with a C.O.D. someone must be
> there to hand UPS a check.
>
> Larger homes can daisy chain a 2nd (or 3rd, etc.) Smartvent fan-only unit
> from the first fan/controller unit. The 2nd unit is $195.
>
> Usually we ship same or next day.
>
> Smartvent, Inc.
> 3255 Cimarron Drive
> Conway, AR 72032
>
> phone 501 329 4915
> fax 253 295 9111


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