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Posted by Tony on October 28, 2009, 11:29 am
N8N wrote:
>>> In article
>>> As I understand it, it's a three phase motor but powered by one phase
>>> power, and the condensor helps this arrangement work. If a motor
>>> can't start, it'll draw a massive amount of current and get hot, fast.
>>> My theory is that the condensor wasn't working properly and so the
>>> motor couldn't start, the winds got red hot in a second before it the
>>> breaker blew. But it's just a theory -- I've little actual experience
>>> with this motor/condensor setup, though I am somewhat familiar with DC
>>> motors. The motor seems to spin freely.
>>> I only have one case of failure to work with, but I'm guessing that
>>> the condensor got wet and that prevented it from working properly so
>>> it couldn't help the motor start. My current plan is to clean the
>>> condensor off, make sure it's all waterproof, and then run with it. I
>>> guess since the motor is outside, with nothing flammable nearby, and
>>> it does have an effective breaker, there's little actual risk of fire
>>> -- at most, it'll fry the motor.
>>> --
>>> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
>> Not making fun of you, but quit calling the capacitor a condenser.
>> Especially when talking about air condioners. I don't recall any calling a
>> capacitor a condenser in many years and I deal with electrical and
>> electronics every day. A condenser is usually though of as a part where the
>> refergent goes through.
>
> They're still commonly referred to as condensers in an automotive
> context. Not sure why...
>
> nate
Should have seen the guys at the NAPA store back in '79' when I, fresh
out of electronics school, asked for points and a capacitor. I left
there with the right parts, but they were still standing firm that the
part I bought was a condenser and NOT a capacitor.
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Posted by Stormin Mormon on October 28, 2009, 12:16 pm
I thought condensors were how cows put milk in them little
cans?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Should have seen the guys at the NAPA store back in '79'
when I, fresh
out of electronics school, asked for points and a capacitor.
I left
there with the right parts, but they were still standing
firm that the
part I bought was a condenser and NOT a capacitor.
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Posted by The Daring Dufas on October 28, 2009, 12:58 pm
Tony wrote:
> N8N wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> As I understand it, it's a three phase motor but powered by one phase
>>>> power, and the condensor helps this arrangement work. If a motor
>>>> can't start, it'll draw a massive amount of current and get hot, fast.
>>>> My theory is that the condensor wasn't working properly and so the
>>>> motor couldn't start, the winds got red hot in a second before it the
>>>> breaker blew. But it's just a theory -- I've little actual experience
>>>> with this motor/condensor setup, though I am somewhat familiar with DC
>>>> motors. The motor seems to spin freely.
>>>> I only have one case of failure to work with, but I'm guessing that
>>>> the condensor got wet and that prevented it from working properly so
>>>> it couldn't help the motor start. My current plan is to clean the
>>>> condensor off, make sure it's all waterproof, and then run with it. I
>>>> guess since the motor is outside, with nothing flammable nearby, and
>>>> it does have an effective breaker, there's little actual risk of fire
>>>> -- at most, it'll fry the motor.
>>>> --
>>>> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
>>> Not making fun of you, but quit calling the capacitor a condenser.
>>> Especially when talking about air condioners. I don't recall any
>>> calling a
>>> capacitor a condenser in many years and I deal with electrical and
>>> electronics every day. A condenser is usually though of as a part
>>> where the
>>> refergent goes through.
>> They're still commonly referred to as condensers in an automotive
>> context. Not sure why...
>> nate
>
> Should have seen the guys at the NAPA store back in '79' when I, fresh
> out of electronics school, asked for points and a capacitor. I left
> there with the right parts, but they were still standing firm that the
> part I bought was a condenser and NOT a capacitor.
Semantics. When I was working overseas there was this crotchety old
Marine who was the construction superintendent and the guy kept
yelling about a "flat rack". It turned out to be a "flat bed truck".
TDD
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Posted by jamesgangnc on October 28, 2009, 12:22 pm
On Oct 27, 5:10=A0pm, "Doug McLaren" <dougmc
+usenet-20091...@frenzied.us> wrote:
> In article <6a9a3e4a-b90f-4820-b53d-9926adb75...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.=
com>,
> | It is probably not the fan. =A0It's probably the compressor. =A0I'm
> | thinking you can't replace the compressor because you probably do not
> | have a recovery system and an oxy/acetylene set to braze the new one
> | in. =A0But you could surprise me I suppose.
> I will not be attempting to replace the compressor myself. =A0The
> outside fan, that's easy to get to and I'd try it myself. =A0If it is
> the compressor, I'll pay a professional for that.
> But in this case, sparks (or just light -- I'm not sure what) came
> from the outside unit when it started, seemingly from the motor. =A0The
> outside unit seems to be just a fan surrounded by a radiator. =A0(I'm
> guessing the compressor is inside.) =A0I wasn't close when it happened
> -- but I did see it light up (it was night time, so I could see it) --
> which tells me something either emitted sparks, or got red hot before
> the circuit breaker blew again.
> As I understand it, it's a three phase motor but powered by one phase
> power, and the condensor helps this arrangement work. =A0If a motor
> can't start, it'll draw a massive amount of current and get hot, fast.
> My theory is that the condensor wasn't working properly and so the
> motor couldn't start, the winds got red hot in a second before it the
> breaker blew. =A0But it's just a theory -- I've little actual experience
> with this motor/condensor setup, though I am somewhat familiar with DC
> motors. =A0The motor seems to spin freely.
> I only have one case of failure to work with, but I'm guessing that
> the condensor got wet and that prevented it from working properly so
> it couldn't help the motor start. =A0My current plan is to clean the
> condensor off, make sure it's all waterproof, and then run with it. =A0I
> guess since the motor is outside, with nothing flammable nearby, and
> it does have an effective breaker, there's little actual risk of fire
> -- at most, it'll fry the motor.
> --
> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
> If Bill Gates had a penny for every time Windows crashed...
> .oh wait, he does.
The flash you saw may have been normal. The fan and compressor are
both started by a large relay. Depending on where it is located and
how well all the covers are installed it is possible you saw it arcing
when it tried to start the unit. The relay has open contacts so it is
possible to see a flash in the dark.
Both the fan motor and the compressor motor will have capacitors, aka
condensors. If both are now running then the capacitors are most
likely good. They tend to fail competely and when they do the motor
in question doesn't run. The fan also tends to fail completely and
is obviously failed when it won't run. Since your is running odds are
it is good. The relay is a dual pole with both hots running through
it. It is pulled by a 24vac power over a small line form the air
hanlder. The fan motor is 120, the compressor is 240. The compressor
motor and the actual compressor it's self are sealed inside a big
roundish can in the middle of the unit. The can is two halves welded
together so the compressor motor is not servicable.
The compressor can become hard to start. It has to start under a load
even normally because the refrigerant is already at a significant
pressure. Various problem situations can also cause the refrigerant
to enter the compressor in a liquid state and then it really has a
hard time starting. Those problems can come and go based on outside/
inside temps and what the inside airhandler is doing. So the fact
that it appears to be working fine now is not an indication of clear
sailing. The compressor also has a overheat/overload safety device in
it. That too is not servicable. If the compressor is having too much
trouble starting that will kick out. You don't want to keep causing
that ovcerload to kick as it will get weak just like letting a breaker
pop over and over.
You can certainly look around inside with the service cutoff turned
off. But you really need someone with some equipment; guages, clamp
on current meter, thermometer to take a look at. A good service tech
will check the pressures, temps outside and inside, as well as the
compressor start up and run current.
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Posted by hr(bob) hofmann@att.net on October 27, 2009, 11:11 pm
> So, last week, we found that the air conditioner wasn't working. =A0The
> inside blower was working, but it was blowing room-temperature air.
> I tracked the problem down to the big (50 A) circuit breaker being
> blown. =A0I switched it back, and it immediately blew again (well, in
> about a second) and I heard a noise from the outside A/C unit (on the
> other side of the house, so I couldn't see it.)
> So I got my wife to do the circuit breaker again while I was watching
> the outside unit. =A0The motor glowed or sparked or something -- light
> came out. =A0I wasn't that close, so I'm not sure exactly which. =A0I'm
> also note sure what the fan did.
> It was raining, so I left things off, went inside.
> I came back out the next day, sunny skies, and tried it again, this
> time being close to the unit so I could see exactly what happened.
> And it started up fine, no problems. =A0Turning it off again, I saw that
> the fan spun pretty freely -- it doesn't seem to have problems with
> the bearings (as I've had in other appliances.)
> So now it seems fine. =A0But I'm reluctant to actually turn it on. =A0Yes=
,
> the circuit breakers will protect me from future problems, but I don't
> like relying on it.
> I'm not much of a handyman, but I could replace the motor and/or
> condensor easily enough -- it's easily accessible. =A0And of course I'll
> have everything off and the circuit breaker off if I try. =A0This is
> about 10 years old, and living in Texas, it gets a lot of use.
> But should I? =A0Or should I just check that water isn't getting in
> somewhere?
> --
> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
So, are you saying the outside unit is working OK, and producing cold
air from the evaporator coil on the furnace? If so, I doubt there is
an internal compressor problem since that is a sealed unit. It is
either a problem with the wiring to the cooling fan motor or perhaps
the relay unit that applies full line AC power to the compressor and
to the cooling fan when the thermostat calls for cooling. The
compressor is most likely across the full line to line, 240 V. The
cooling fan is most likely 120V, one line to ground. No home unit is
three-phase like an earlier poster suggested, unless you live in a
multimillion dollar mansion in which case yhou most likely would not
be doing it yourself.
With power fully turned off, check the insulation where power goes
into the compressor to make sure it is ok. Then look carefully at the
pwer into the cooling fan and also all connections to the power
control relay. If you saw sparks, there must be someplace where the
insulation around the wires will be discolored.
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Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 > last >>
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>>> As I understand it, it's a three phase motor but powered by one phase
>>> power, and the condensor helps this arrangement work. If a motor
>>> can't start, it'll draw a massive amount of current and get hot, fast.
>>> My theory is that the condensor wasn't working properly and so the
>>> motor couldn't start, the winds got red hot in a second before it the
>>> breaker blew. But it's just a theory -- I've little actual experience
>>> with this motor/condensor setup, though I am somewhat familiar with DC
>>> motors. The motor seems to spin freely.
>>> I only have one case of failure to work with, but I'm guessing that
>>> the condensor got wet and that prevented it from working properly so
>>> it couldn't help the motor start. My current plan is to clean the
>>> condensor off, make sure it's all waterproof, and then run with it. I
>>> guess since the motor is outside, with nothing flammable nearby, and
>>> it does have an effective breaker, there's little actual risk of fire
>>> -- at most, it'll fry the motor.
>>> --
>>> Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us