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Posted by Mark Harris on October 15, 2006, 2:52 am
What you are trying to do makes sense. MOST new installations create a
DEMARK point on the side of your residence that disconnects THEIR network
from YOUR wiring. If any service calls occur, they REALLY want to find that
demark point and test the line TO YOUR HOUSE. Then on problems INSIDE will
cost YOU money, anything TO THE DEMARK from the street will be fixed at no
charge.
So, using this same DEMARK location, you can simply insert these 8-conductor
to 8-conductor junction point, and then disconnect it while you are using
VOIP. Remember, VOIP will be 'driven' by a VOIP router insdie the house,
presumably fed by a cable modem. (Can't cut the DEMARK wires if you are
actually using DSL).
So, if you have a cable modem, feeding a VOIP router, then simply make the
break so it can easily be restored in the future, and then just feed the
POTS jack on the side of the VOIP router into your existing house wiring,
making sure the 'hot wires' are locted on the CENTER TWO PINS, RS11, RJ12,
RJ45, whatever the jack is, it will ALWAYS be the center TWO pins carrying
LINE-1 on a analog jack.
Should work fine, and then all telephones which work today on your wiring
will contiunue to work.
Note: You may have a RINGER loading issue is using many OLD phones in your
house today. They carry a REN value which basically states how much current
the ringer takes. A VOIP router can only supply a a total of perhaps 2.5 REN
(adding up all of the REN numbers printed on each phone label).
>I plan on installing a VOIP setup in my house.
>
> The problem is that the phone wiring that enters the house is 8 conductor
> and is hardwired to the phone distribution center. So, I figure I can
> break into that incoming line and install a couple of cat5 8 conductor
> female plugs on the two severed ends and can use a cat5 patch cord to
> connect them if I ever want to go back to the teleco. But, that would only
> happen if I sell the house.
>
> The question I have is: Can I plug in a normal rj11 modular plug (coming
> from the modem) into the female rj45 jack that I'll be installing upstream
> from the distribution center and expect those 4 conductors in the plug to
> be aligned with the appropriate conductors in the rj45 jack? The phone
> modem only has rj11 plugs.
>
>
> BTW-I know I'll only be able to hook up one phone (an expandable wireless
> system) to this setup. I just want to make my setup easy to undo when I
> move.
>
>
>
>
>
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Posted by Jim Redelfs on October 15, 2006, 10:20 am
> Note: You may have a RINGER loading issue is using many OLD phones in your
> house today. They carry a REN value
Ringer Equivalence Number
> which basically states how much current the ringer takes.
> A VOIP router can only supply a a total of perhaps 2.5 REN
> (adding up all of the REN numbers printed on each phone label).
When The Big Split<tm> came in 1984, the dual gong electromechanical ringer in
the Western Electric Model 500 (old, black, rotary dial, desk phone) was used
to set the baseline for the REN. The 500 = 1.0 REN.
However, with the virtually complete takeover by electronic ringers, the REN
has become mostly useless. They all have a modest REN, rarely over 1.2, but
many don't even register using an old ringer test: Using a plain VOM set to
Ohms, repeatedly reversing lead polarity. The amount of needle deflection
indicates the number of ringers. Many electronic telephone devices with a REN
of .8 (for example) won't even make the old VOM budge. Weird. Given that,
MANY more electronic ringer-equipped phones and devices will ring/answer than
is otherwise indicated by the sum of the indicated RENs.
In the old days, electrically disconnecting the ringer from an illegal
telephone set actually WOULD elude a telco attempt to determine the number of
phones on a line.
Soooooo... Someone just said the center, two pins of an RJ45 jack are for
POTS phone use. Does that mean they are NOT used in for ethernet? If yes,
can I run POTS *AND* ethernet over the same Cat5 4pr? If yes, what are the
implications to ethernet performance, if any?
I was told the other day that Cat5 is NOT absolutely necessary to run
ethernet. Given that, what can I expect if I run a basic (modest) network
using the older wire in my 1991 (RBOC gray-sheathed 6-pr, probably Cat3)? TIA
--
:)
JR
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Posted by Mark Lloyd on October 15, 2006, 1:48 pm
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 09:20:48 -0500, Jim Redelfs
>
>> Note: You may have a RINGER loading issue is using many OLD phones in your
>> house today. They carry a REN value
>
>Ringer Equivalence Number
>
>> which basically states how much current the ringer takes.
>> A VOIP router can only supply a a total of perhaps 2.5 REN
>> (adding up all of the REN numbers printed on each phone label).
>
>When The Big Split<tm> came in 1984, the dual gong electromechanical ringer in
>the Western Electric Model 500 (old, black, rotary dial, desk phone) was used
>to set the baseline for the REN. The 500 = 1.0 REN.
>
>However, with the virtually complete takeover by electronic ringers, the REN
>has become mostly useless. They all have a modest REN, rarely over 1.2, but
>many don't even register using an old ringer test: Using a plain VOM set to
>Ohms, repeatedly reversing lead polarity. The amount of needle deflection
>indicates the number of ringers. Many electronic telephone devices with a REN
>of .8 (for example) won't even make the old VOM budge. Weird. Given that,
>MANY more electronic ringer-equipped phones and devices will ring/answer than
>is otherwise indicated by the sum of the indicated RENs.
>
>In the old days, electrically disconnecting the ringer from an illegal
>telephone set actually WOULD elude a telco attempt to determine the number of
>phones on a line.
>
>Soooooo... Someone just said the center, two pins of an RJ45 jack are for
>POTS phone use. Does that mean they are NOT used in for ethernet?
Ethernet uses two pairs: one on pins 1&2, the other on pins 3&6. Most
(single line) phone connections use one pair (4&4 on a RJ45).
BTW, I've wired a few ethernet cables, They won't work reliably unless
you get the pairs right (pins 3 & 6 must be connected to the 2 wires
in the same pair).
> If yes,
>can I run POTS *AND* ethernet over the same Cat5 4pr?
You could, but it's not a good idea. If you're putting the cable in,
it's not that much harder to run 2 than it is to run 1.
> If yes, what are the
>implications to ethernet performance, if any?
>
Phone uses voltages up to about 125V (during ringing). A short in the
cable could damage your ethernet equipment. Also, the phone can cause
interference to the ethernet. You could find your network much slower
(many retries).
>I was told the other day that Cat5 is NOT absolutely necessary to run
>ethernet. Given that, what can I expect if I run a basic (modest) network
>using the older wire in my 1991 (RBOC gray-sheathed 6-pr, probably Cat3)? TIA
A 10mbps network is likely to work. Any faster one may not. The
twisting is important.
--
71 days until the winter solstice celebration
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Posted by HeyBub on October 15, 2006, 8:34 am
CraigT wrote:
> I plan on installing a VOIP setup in my house.
>
> The problem is that the phone wiring that enters the house is 8
> conductor and is hardwired to the phone distribution center. So, I
> figure I can break into that incoming line and install a couple of
> cat5 8 conductor female plugs on the two severed ends and can use a
> cat5 patch cord to connect them if I ever want to go back to the
> teleco. But, that would only happen if I sell the house.
>
> The question I have is: Can I plug in a normal rj11 modular plug
> (coming from the modem) into the female rj45 jack that I'll be
> installing upstream from the distribution center and expect those 4
> conductors in the plug to be aligned with the appropriate conductors
> in the rj45 jack? The phone modem only has rj11 plugs.
>
>
> BTW-I know I'll only be able to hook up one phone (an expandable
> wireless system) to this setup. I just want to make my setup easy to
> undo when I move.
You're confused. The VoIP adapter sits between your internet connection and
the telephone system. The wire that comes OUT of the VoIP box IS a telephone
line and should be treated in all ways as another telephone trunk line.
In our case, we have three VoIP modems connected to the network router. Each
of the outputs from the three VoIP modems then goes to our PBX system, just
like the wires from the telephone company do. To the telephone user, they
look exactly like an additional telephone line.
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Posted by on October 15, 2006, 9:19 am
> CraigT wrote:
>> I plan on installing a VOIP setup in my house.
>>
>> The problem is that the phone wiring that enters the house is 8
>> conductor and is hardwired to the phone distribution center. So, I
>> figure I can break into that incoming line and install a couple of
>> cat5 8 conductor female plugs on the two severed ends and can use a
>> cat5 patch cord to connect them if I ever want to go back to the
>> teleco. But, that would only happen if I sell the house.
>>
>> The question I have is: Can I plug in a normal rj11 modular plug
>> (coming from the modem) into the female rj45 jack that I'll be
>> installing upstream from the distribution center and expect those 4
>> conductors in the plug to be aligned with the appropriate conductors
>> in the rj45 jack? The phone modem only has rj11 plugs.
>>
>>
>> BTW-I know I'll only be able to hook up one phone (an expandable
>> wireless system) to this setup. I just want to make my setup easy to
>> undo when I move.
>
> You're confused. The VoIP adapter sits between your internet connection
> and the telephone system. The wire that comes OUT of the VoIP box IS a
> telephone line and should be treated in all ways as another telephone
> trunk line.
>
> In our case, we have three VoIP modems connected to the network router.
> Each of the outputs from the three VoIP modems then goes to our PBX
> system, just like the wires from the telephone company do. To the
> telephone user, they look exactly like an additional telephone line.
>
Okay, after reading all this thread, I think I get it- he doesn't have a
normal residential demarc, with the rj-11 jacks- he has one of those
aluminum or gray boxes with the brass posts for the 4-pair incoming, that
also has posts or punchdowns for the runs to all the rooms. Or maybe he has
a 66 block, with no apparent terminals or ground blocks upstream. Not
uncommon a few years ago for multi-line or multi-residence service. He wants
to break the 4-pair telco feed wire, so he can use the inside wiring as
distribution for his VOIP dial tone from the VOIP box.
Telco will get cranky if OP cuts 'their' wire, if this distribution point is
in fact their 'demarc'. Proper solution is to get telco out there to install
a modern demarc with a seperate rj11 for each existing or potential pair on
the incoming drop. (Like a small apartment building would have). Not to
mention the additional noise a field-installed rj connector is likely to add
to the line. Failing that, I would mark, by color, which posts the incoming
pairs are attached to, via a weatherproof sticker inside the lid, and simply
disconnect them, and tape the bare ends. (There is sometimes a digram in the
box- if not, draw one.) I would also include a sign saying VOIP is in use,
and to NOT reconnect incoming service without verifying status with the
subscriber. The signage is needed if the box is outside the house, because
telco will sometimes open a demarc on the wrong house, or open all the
demarcs to a particular pedestal or pole connection if it is damaged or has
to be switched out. If the box is in the basement or garage, it is still a
good idea, since somebody else who doesn't understand the VOIP may let them
in the house while you are away. In fact, a note or sign in the box is a
good idea even for people with rj11 demarcs, for the same reasons, along
with a piece of tape over the incoming feed wires or connectors. You never
know if the next guy to open the box will be up to speed on what is going
on.
aem sends....
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