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Re: Help-- Rim joist rotted!

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Re: Help-- Rim joist rotted! DiezMon 06-22-2005
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Posted by DiezMon on June 22, 2005, 12:10 pm

<snipped>
> So now I need to know how to go about replacing it, so I can continue on
> with the deck. I've googled for info without much luck. The little info
I
> found via google assumes that the rim joist is perpendicular to the floor
> joists, and that it's right over the foundation. In my case, it's
parallel
> to the floor joists (and on the gable end of the house), and since it's a
> split-entry house, there is a short (approx 5') wall between this joist
and
> the block foundation below.

So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase your
rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running the
entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?

> a) do I have to replace this joist as a complete span, or can I cut it out
> and replace the damaged chunk? The posts dealing with the joists right
over
> the foundation imply you can just cut out the damaged section, but since
I'm
> over a wall, I wasn't sure if this was more structural. For what it's
> worth, the wall's top plate is only a single 2x4, not a doubled header
plate
> like you'd expect if it were load bearing.
> b) What, if anything, do I need to do to brace the house temporarilly
during
> this repair? As I have vinyl siding over "build rite", I can get to the
> framing reasonably easy from the outside, but both levels of the inside
are
> finished and would be a major problem to remove anything down to the
framing
> members. The damaged chunk isn't doing anything structurally now, but I
> want to make sure I don't have "the walls tumble down" if I remove a
> slightly bigger one...

I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
bearing over that short wall. I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new
studs under where you're going to replace the damaged section, just like you
would a header over a new window. So, you're essentially turning a single
load bearing joist/beam into three, with additional studs under the points
where you have to cut the joist, know what I mean? I know this means
removing a potentially large section of wall, but that vinyl siding is easy
to remove and replace. It shouldn't take you long.

What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround the
area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
sense?

Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger out
a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt your
ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
ledger as well.

And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro who
can see it with his/her own eyes :)

Tim



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Posted by Tim Fischer on June 22, 2005, 12:37 pm
> So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase
your
> rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
> is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running
the
> entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?

There is a large steel member that runs down the center of the house. Based
on the looks of the finished lower level, I think there is a single post
supporting this steel beam, aside from the sides of the house. The wall in
question is about 26' long, with the steel in the center. It's a single
joist - 2x10". House was built in 1980, in case that's relavant.

> I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
> bearing over that short wall.

That's my concern. If I knew it definitely *wasn't* then I'd feel very
comfortable doing the repair.

> I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new (snip)

That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.

I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot1.jpg
http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot2.jpg

As you can see, the rotted section is directly below the left edge of the
patio door (and it's supporting jack/king studs), and also above a window
below. Unless I replace the entire section under the patio door and to the
right of the window below, I'd have to presumably do some pretty hefty
beefing up of the window header so it could support the weight of the joist
(and deck) above.

> What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
> the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround
the
> area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
> sense?

Makes sense, except for the patio door. I'm assuming I can probably jack on
both sides of it, ignoring the span of the door itself, since the structure
above it is supported by a header? What size jacks would you recommend for
this? Would standard screw jaks ala Home Depot work, or should I rent some
beefier ones?

> Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger
out
> a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt
your
> ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
> this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
> tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
> ledger as well.

That makes sense, as long as it doesn't violate any codes.

> And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro
who
> can see it with his/her own eyes :)

Point taken. Like I said, I'm open to any advice on who to call for
something like this -- even just to get an estimate. But aside from $$$'s
being a concern, I currently have an open sore in the side of the house and
it's been pretty rainy lately -- so I'd like to tackle this very quickly
(aside from me wanting to resume my plans to work on the deck itself...)

Thanks bunches, hope the pics and further detail help diagnose this problem.
I'm also asking lots of questions just so I don't assume (and miss)
something - I hope it isn't making me look woefully ignorant.

-Tim



Posted by JimL on June 22, 2005, 1:51 pm

Very nice pictures.

I am currently working on a similar problem on my house but mine is
caused by termites. I'm replacing several studs and headers so my
house don't fall down. I have a wide triple window unit that has to
go as I've lost a great deal of structural integrity in the area.
I'm replacing the wide (36 inch) windows with 28 inch windows and
adding new treated studs between each the three windws and on the
outer edges.

You need to do the same. Starting from your foundation, build a
structurally sound pillar (2 2x4 treated studs nailed and glued
together) going all the way to your roof, replacing the single windows
with two windows, one on each side of this new pillar.




wrote:

>> So how long is this wall? The short wall has only a single 2x4 becuase
>your
>> rim joist(s?) is bearing the weight. And how long is the total span? And
>> is this a single joist? Not two 2x12's? Are your floor joists running
>the
>> entire width of the house, or do you have posts in the basement?
>
>There is a large steel member that runs down the center of the house. Based
>on the looks of the finished lower level, I think there is a single post
>supporting this steel beam, aside from the sides of the house. The wall in
>question is about 26' long, with the steel in the center. It's a single
>joist - 2x10". House was built in 1980, in case that's relavant.
>
>> I'm no structural engineer, but my guess is that the rim joist is load
>> bearing over that short wall.
>
>That's my concern. If I knew it definitely *wasn't* then I'd feel very
>comfortable doing the repair.
>
>> I'm anal, so what I would do is put in new (snip)
>
>That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.
>
>I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
>http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot1.jpg
>http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot2.jpg
>
>As you can see, the rotted section is directly below the left edge of the
>patio door (and it's supporting jack/king studs), and also above a window
>below. Unless I replace the entire section under the patio door and to the
>right of the window below, I'd have to presumably do some pretty hefty
>beefing up of the window header so it could support the weight of the joist
>(and deck) above.
>
>> What you could do for support is pull off a couple of rows of siding above
>> the rim joist, then lag bolt a temporary 2x12 to the studs that surround
>the
>> area you'll be replacing, then jack up that 2x12 from the outside. make
>> sense?
>
>Makes sense, except for the patio door. I'm assuming I can probably jack on
>both sides of it, ignoring the span of the door itself, since the structure
>above it is supported by a header? What size jacks would you recommend for
>this? Would standard screw jaks ala Home Depot work, or should I rent some
>beefier ones?
>
>> Also, when you put on the new deck a good idea is to shim the new ledger
>out
>> a bit. Cut some treated 1/4"(or less) strips to use where you'll bolt
>your
>> ledger onto the house. Inevitably, water will get behind the deck ledger,
>> this space will allow for better drainage. Don't forget the new layer of
>> tar paper over your new rim joist area, then good flashing over the new
>> ledger as well.
>
>That makes sense, as long as it doesn't violate any codes.
>
>> And, of course, you shouldn't listen to any of us. You should call a pro
>who
>> can see it with his/her own eyes :)
>
>Point taken. Like I said, I'm open to any advice on who to call for
>something like this -- even just to get an estimate. But aside from $$$'s
>being a concern, I currently have an open sore in the side of the house and
>it's been pretty rainy lately -- so I'd like to tackle this very quickly
>(aside from me wanting to resume my plans to work on the deck itself...)
>
>Thanks bunches, hope the pics and further detail help diagnose this problem.
>I'm also asking lots of questions just so I don't assume (and miss)
>something - I hope it isn't making me look woefully ignorant.
>
>-Tim
>


Posted by on June 22, 2005, 2:21 pm
<snipola>
> That sounds like a decent plan, but as usual, there are complications.

> I've posted 2 pictures of the situation:
> http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot1.jpg
> http://www.fischersplace.com/images/Gallery/home/Deck/deckrot2.jpg

Assume it's structural, plase a temporary beam just inside the wall and
use some jacks (common ones will do fine) to take the load. I've never
done this, but what I've read in Finehomebuilding (which covers a related
topic in this months decks issue, you should give it a read) indicates
that it's easy to get carried away and cause all manner of cracks in the
drywall. Cut out the entire half of the joist (from edge of house to
center beam) and replace it.

Strip the siding up further and make absolutely certain that the sliding
door is flashed correctly . And strip down to see how far the damage to
the sheathing/studs has gone in the bottom wall.



John
--
Remove the dead poet to e-mail, tho CC'd posts are unwelcome.
Mean People Suck - It takes two deviations to get cool.
Ask me about joining the NRA.

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