Higher SEER = More Problems? Worth it?

Hey RAJ,

In my opinion, having been an HVAC Contractor for 30+ years, I tend to agree that 14 seer or more is a waste of money as it would take a very long time to pay-back the difference, than say a 13 seer, which is what I put in my own home.

I'm sure the day will come when electric and gas will be so expensive, we'll wish we had a 30 seer, but until at least 2010, when R-22 will be phased out, I'll be installing 13 seer cooling and heat pumps and more than ever putting in dual fuel systems, 96 AFUE gas furnaces and 13 seer heat pumps.

I've been using Amana units for awhile now, and really like the varible speed blowers, biggest improvement in heating and cooling since electronic ignition in plae of the pilot light.

You can get a lot of info at

the pictures on the wall of shame are pretty good to.

Take care, mrkool

RAJ wrote:

It really depends on where you are located... here in the south, the payback on the a/c or a heat pump is really pretty quick as we have 9 months of summer here as opposed to 9 months of winter sports where you would actually see a payback from a 96% AFUE furnace.

buy a long term MANUFACTURERS warranty. Around here 10 year is common.

that way service costs are minimal

You need to find a Seer chart showing payback comparisons, the savings is not linear increasing but is less for each Seer number increase to figure your cost and payback. Some manufacturers simple units go above

14 my lennox is 15 seer. It also depends on hours per year used, location and total $ you pay to AC. Run your numbers and figure in a doubling of electric cost for 10 yrs out, every house and location are different.

Thats because the AVERAGE contractor has no damn clue about higher SEER units, and the extra control board scares the hell out of the uneducated. Instead of 5 or 6 wires to the outside unit, its now got suddenly 10 or 12 and they are panicked...OMG..where does this one go? Talking heat pump there.. On straight AC, instead of just the two control wires, now its got 6...and its soooooooo complicated.... Of course, with proper training, and proper install practice, they are now, to some of us..as simple as the old ones, and we are NOT seeing any issues with the 16, and 18 SEER units.

AS far as the money savings goes, its like when fuel goes up an extra penny, and some fool drives all over town to save 10 cents on a fill up, but yet, he spends a buck in gas looking for the cheap stuff, or the neighbor up the road that was only getting 15MPG in his paid for fairly new SUV but goes out and spends 30 grand on a car that wont even get twice that, but it looked good on paper. And the fuel savings sure wont justify the new car payment.

And then there is the contractor that is scared of the new refrigerant. OF COURSE its bad..LOL...of course its gonna fail sooner..of COURSE hes got to get new training and tools, and its not cheap.

You have some contractors that are so scared of the new stuff, that they price it so far out of the ballpark, that you dont want it..There is a company here that flat out refuses to install R410a equipment as long as he can get R22 units. Thats great..whatever floats his boat. He has effectively cut his market by more than half, and of course hes not gonna get the proper training that a legitimate contractor was getting 3 years ago to get ready for the fact that R22 is a dinasaur. Its times up..in 4 years, its not even going to be made in the US. Why not go on and learn your future now, than to wait and allow it to bite you when everyone else that had a clue went on, started training, and is now confident with the new tech?

Screw Consumer Reports..never seen a single report in there that was applicable to anything I owned. Product X, bad..according to them, yet no one I knew or if I owned it, gave a moments problem. You know with CR its about money right?

Look at your options. Run your numbers for your location. I would suggest planning for energy costs to double at LEAST within the next 10 years.

As I said once before SEER is more for manufacturing gain then it is for consumer, however every body got they own opinion Few years ago when solar panels came out it was thing of future Yes there is some benefits in some area but does the consumer actually benefit from it or just break even? can you actually take anybody word for it like contractor who is making living on it or some one who made full of him self by installing some thing that barely got savings from it to pay for maintenance or manufacture who is trying to benefit from it. I am sorry but you are the one who must decide and pay for it Good Luck from Dido

jzjz had written this in response to

: I agree. This 30+ Year contractor is just running his mouth without really thinking. He probably lives in a little house with $100 a month ac/heating bills. If you have a small heating or AC bill, than cutting a small bill in 1/2 won't help pay it back very fast.

However I have a huge problem. I have 5500 square feet and I'm seeing $500 to $600 bills with this piece of junk 12 seer york I have. If those bills were cut in 1/2 it would save about $250 a month. It would pay for itself in about 2 years. There's at least $5000 a year spend on heating an air conditioning here and it's an electric nightmare. Back when electric was more affordable it wasn't too bad. But they raised our electric rates by over 60% in one year!

I'm aware that a 24 seer probably wouldn't really cut the bill in 1/2, but it at least gives me hope that it would pay for itself in a reasonable time. If not in 2 years then maybe 4 or 5. Even if it were 6 or 7 it would be worth the chance on it. I just wish I knew the exact figures..

:

Hi, First thing first, is your house well insulated and air tight?

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I think this is their speculation and have nothing to base it on since the other units are so new. Also money is being lost ever month on 11 SEER untis due to the inefficiency. It depends on what their original bills are like. I've noticed a lot of contractors are LIARS and are always protecting THEIR interests. If it means more training or a complex unit, they tend to advise against that for their own selfish reasons. This fogs the issue some.

:

Hi, A contractor who doesn't keep up with hi-tech. stuffs with ongoing proper training won't really understand what they are dealing with. Like automotive mechanic who does not understand basic electronics. When I had my a/c unit installed I wanted to have wireless thermostat. The guy did an excellent install job but had no clue about wireless stuffs. At least he was honest to tell me that. I installed 'stat and sort of gave him a quick run down. Of course complex equipment needs more maintenance for sure. Without proper knowledge/experience dealing with complexity it can get messy. My unit is SEER 15. I need cooling barely 2 months a year.

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The only one who can tell you is a local tech..... and the tech should be able to show your actual ROI numbers at todays utility rates.

:

It's pretty hot where I live, but those numbers sound high to me. I suspect you need more insulation, and probably some patches on your ductwork. I'm also a fan (no pun intended) of radiant barriers.

If those bills

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Oh jesus, give it up, already.....

and the tech should be

He should, eh? How bout YOU?? Proly not.

To the OP: iirc, energy consumption is directly proportional to the eer rating. So, theoretically, a 24 seer should use half the energy of your 12, assuming it really is 24. Plus, if it's got a heat pump, you'll likely save with that as well. Plus, it seems these newer units are very quiet -- at least the mitsubishi/fujitsu "suitcases" -- the fujitsu my neighbor has is *super* quiet -- you couldn't hear it if it were under a dining room table during dinner.

So, depending on how much you actually use it, you can do the calcs yourself, just from the claimed eers and your current usage and $ per kwhr.

As others have said, insulation makes a big diff -- as does good zoning, which is easier said than done with A/C. You might consider a bunch of mini-splits instead of one central A/C unit -- not the cheapest way to go initially, but with the zoning inherent in minisplits, you may save bundles way beyond even the eer diffs.

Note that the original question comes from June 2006

People at the suckocompany are a few sandwiches short of a picnic.

Jon

Thanks for the kind words, Mr. Hwang. The respect is returned. I've been impressed that you are polite, and thoughtful. I've never met a bad Hwang. Actually, can't say as I've met one in person in any form.

Goodgawd.... mebbe it's the water.... mebbe they're both drinking the same water....

Isn't a Hwang what the Mormons play with when they are not married?

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