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Re: Piggy-backing new 125v outlet on existing 250v outlet?

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Re: Piggy-backing new 125v outlet on existing 250v outlet? JimE 08-09-2005
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Posted by JimE on August 9, 2005, 2:28 pm

I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a simila
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside th
walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult.
have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-styl
one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-i
cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v
wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit
which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet.
need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the onl
reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outle
wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my hous
are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outle
is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exis
for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet curren
codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied b
their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must b
some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the olde
homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance

--
Jim
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Posted by Chris Lewis on August 9, 2005, 3:37 pm

> I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
> situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
> walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
> have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
> one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
> cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
> wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
> which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
> need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
> reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
> wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
> are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
> is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
> for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
> codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
> their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
> some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
> homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.

The main difficulties people encounter switching 240V outlets over
to 120V is that the result isn't breakered properly and/or has no
ground.

Or they try to mix 240V and 120V devices on the same circuit.
Yes, stoves and dryers are such, but they're single devices, not
multiple. There's a reason why stoves and dryers are supposed
to be the _only_ things on their circuits.

You say that you have a 240V 3 wire receptacle in the wall with
other 120V outlets attached to it. This is illegal for at least
three reasons:

1) The 120V outlets cannot have proper grounds. Ground != neutral,
potentially quite dangerous.
2) The 120V outlets are inherently breakered at 30A - highly
dangerous.
3) Mixture of different voltages for seperate devices.

The closest you can get to "right", without pulling new wire, is
to rearrange the wiring in the panel so that it's a single 120V
circuit on a 15A or 20A breaker (with oversize wire, but that's
okay). Which ends up needing to use an insulated wire as ground -
you have to use the white as neutral - so that means you'll have to
use a black or red as ground.

Code-wise that's illegal, but an inspector may permit it if you
have no other reasonable alternative.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Posted by on August 9, 2005, 5:15 pm

> ...The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall.
> This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets
> on it that were powered by this outlet.

Note the words "on it." I suppose it would be legal to plug a fridge
into one of those outlets, if you didn't remove the old unit. If you
removed the front door of the old oven, would it still be legal to
plug the fridge into one of the 120 V outlets? Probably so. And if you
removed the range top? Probably so. And if you removed the racks in
the oven? Probably so. And if you removed everything else you could
unbolt or cut off, leaving only the outlets, dangling by wires...? :-)

> I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that
> the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs...

Essentially duplicating what was on the old unit, with no change in
the existing level of safety. I wonder if there's some way to improve
the level of safety with something like a gfi, with no new wiring...

Nick


Posted by EXT on August 9, 2005, 7:19 pm
If you care to check, the outlet(s) on the old stove had their own 15 amp
fuses in the stoves fuse panel to protect the wiring and outlet, what you
propose will not have such fuse protection.

>
> I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
> situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
> walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
> have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
> one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
> cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
> wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
> which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
> need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
> reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
> wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
> are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
> is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
> for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
> codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
> their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
> some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
> homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.
>
>
> --
> JimE
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52
> View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759
>



Posted by JimE on August 9, 2005, 8:00 pm

There were a couple of fuses downstream of the junction box on the ol
pullman unit, so it seems likely that at least one was for the 120
outlets. I still need both 240v for the cooktop and 120v for th
fridge. The outlet box is in a cabinet under the sink. Would it b
better to install a one breaker mini-panel with a 15 amp breaker unde
the sink between the 240v outlet and the 120v outlets? I live in the U
Virgin Islands and the standards are quite a bit lower than back in th
states. I seriously doubt that an inspector will ever see this wirin
and I suspect they would not have a problem with it if they did

--
Jim
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JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=5
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