Wholesale cost on that unit is roughly $1,700, give or take. Remember that the tax credit is on the installed cost, not the unit alone as you stated. But still, you have a valid concern on the overall cost savings, especially with natural gas costs as low as they are right now.
The tank will probably last longer than any other one made. Look at a
50 yr price trend chart for Ng, now draw in the next 20 yrs yourself. Payback will be sooner than it is now based on future increases you should expect. What is the vertex 83 EF? I know you hate the premise of tankless, but they go to 95 EF.
I don't know how "odd" they were, but brief poking around the web seems to indicate that they are right. But, in the case of water heaters (and furnaces, heat pumps, and AC) the credit is based on the installed cost, probably because your plumber or HVAC installer has no desire to share the cost of the equipment with you.
You still dont get it and I dont think ever will, the Vertex is about
12- TWELVE %, less efficent than Condensing Tankless like Navien, and Takagi. Thermal Efficency is not the certified E.F. rating. Can you even find AO Smiths EF rating on a vertex? I cant. AO openly publishes EF on all their other WH but why not Vertex? The answer is because its near 83 EF and they dont want you to know there is better more efficent stuff out there for the same money. Thermal Efficency is not a test, it does not take into account real life usage, its not a certified rated "test", as the main culpret off heat loss is up the uninsulated center of tank. If you want the most efficent, its Ng condensing Tankless. Post a link to AO Vertex EF Rating, if you can, not their "thermal efficency" bs statement that means nothing for overall usage and is unrecognised by the Gov. I own the Vertex`s big brother , a 190000 btu AO Cyclone. I own tankless, and tanks. Learn what the frigin ratings mean.
I would replace my existing 75,000 BTU 50 gallon tank with a 75 gallon
75,000 BTU one since the 50 gallon doesnt appear to be available anymore.......
This tank is about 900 bucks. and requires a chimney, and mine is bad: (
my cost of $2,200 for the vertex less 30% tax break $660 about 1600 bucks cheaper than rebuilding the chimney at this time muchmore efficent and stops sending pre heated room air up chimney 24/7
Tankless water heaters They're efficient but not necessarily economical
VIDEO: Tankless water heaters All videos Heating water accounts for up to 30 percent of the average home's energy budget. Some makers of gas-fired tankless water heaters claim their products can cut your energy costs up to half over regular storage heaters. So is it time to switch?
Probably not. Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy efficient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That translates into a savings of around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 national energy costs. But because they cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up to 22 years to break even=97longer than the 20-year life of many models. Moreover, our online poll of 1,200 readers revealed wide variations in installation costs, energy savings, and satisfaction.
With the help of an outside lab, we pitted Takagi and Noritz gas-fired tankless water heaters against three storage water heaters. We didn't test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if ground=ADwater is cold. Even in areas with warm groundwater, most homeowners would need to upgrade their electrical service to power a whole-house tankless model.
Our tests simulated daily use of 76 to 78 gallons of hot water. That's the equivalent of taking three showers, washing one laun=ADdry load, running the dishwasher once (six cycles), and turning on the faucet nine times, for a total of 19 draws. While that's considered heavy use compared with the standard Department of Energy test, we think it more accurately represents an average family's habits. We also ran more than 45,000 gallons of very hard water through a tanked model and a Rinnai tankless model to simulate about 11 years of regular use.
Here's what else we found:
Water runs hot and cold Manufacturers of tankless water heaters are fond of touting their products' ability to provide an endless amount of hot water. But inconsistent water temperatures were a common complaint among our poll respondents. When you turn on the faucet, tankless models feed in some cold water to gauge how big a temperature rise is needed. If there's cool water lingering in your pipes, you'll receive a momentary "cold- water sandwich" between the old and new hot water. And a tankless water heater's burner might not ignite when you try to get just a trickle of hot water for, say, shaving.
Nor do tankless water heaters deliver hot water instantaneously. It takes time to heat the water to the target temperature, and just like storage water heaters, any cold water in the pipes needs to be pushed out. And tankless models' electric controls mean you'll also lose hot water during a power outage.
Up-front costs are high The tankless water heaters we tested cost $800 to $1,150, compared with $300 to $480 for the regular storage-tank types. Tankless models need electrical outlets for their fan and electronics, upgraded gas pipes, and a new ventilation system. That can bring average installation costs to $1,200, compared with $300 for storage-tank models.
Tankless units might need more care During our long-term testing, an indicator on the tankless model warned of scale buildup. We paid $334 for special valves and a plumber to flush out the water heater with vinegar. Many industry pros recommend that tankless models be serviced once a year by a qualified technician. Calcium buildup can decrease efficiency, restrict water flow, and damage tankless models. Experts suggest installing a water softener if your water hardness is above 11 grains per gallon. Ignoring this advice can shorten your warranty.
Efficient storage models are pricey We also tested the $1,400 Vertex, a high-efficiency storage water heater by A.O. Smith. The manufacturer claims its installation costs are similar to a regular storage model. But its high cost offsets much of the roughly $70 per year the Vertex will save you. Instead, we recommend buying a conventional storage water heater with a 9- or 12- year warranty. In previous tests, we found that those models generally had thicker insulation, bigger burners or larger heating elements, and better corrosion-fighting metal rods called anodes.
I have a 4 yrs payback on my tankless, its now 8 yrs old, so much for CR talking the full story here of whats avalaible. Tanks scale inside reducing efficency every year, does the Vertex have a cleanout cover, the Cyclone does and every year I get about 1" of sediment. My old AO was probably 30% efficent with 12-13" of scale. CR hasnt discussed that, being biased to tank like you. My temps are even and I enjoy Nine dollar gas bills in summer, I bet you cant get that, can you. Sure you learn to live with quirks, but I save and pay less for Ng than you ever will, isnt that what its about, saving money! Have you lived with or tested a tankless, no you havnt, CR has taken a biased stance against tankless, they " forget" to address tank scale, tankless that dont need any electricity what so ever, tank reducing efficency over the years, tankless coil life. So spend 2000 for a 83% efficent vertex, I spent 450 for a 86% Bosch tankless that works just fine and saves me more money that any tank ever will. It doesnt take much brains, to figure out a tank keeping water hot 24x7x365, with an uninsulated center chimney, can never match a on demand system for efficency. 83% is the Vertex true efficency.
Dont let me discourage you from a Vertex, its the best tank option you have today. but you just moan and bitch on something you havnt tried and only post the negative. There alot of people out there with tankless that are satisfied, and the best tankless can save 14% more than a Vertex will ever get you. Unless you really clean the vertex tank bottom that efficency rating is first year only, so much for CR "unbiased reviews"
I know this thread is a little old but, since ransley actually owns several of the types of water heaters I was researching I like his unbiased opinion. My 25 year old Kenmore 40 gallon tank is starting to leak so I was going to go tankless. I assume the Bosch you have is the 1600H which uses hydro generated ignition. I liked the idea of not having to add another outlet but, I don't think it has enough output for my house , 1 1/2 baths , dishwasher & washer machine, so I might go with the bigger models 2400 or 2700 or a Rinnai. Also the
1600 doesn't qualify for the tax credits or rebates with a .80 EF & 78% efficiency. Someone mentioned the Vertex on the terrylove.com website so I check into them. Although I also couldn't get the EF numbers even from AHRI on any of the new condensing models from AO Smith, State or Bradford White, why do you think there numbers would be so low?
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to add to my confusion I just saw a new GE commercial about a electric heat pump water heater with a 2.35 EF number,
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Would this save more money than any gas unit? Also I think the only difference between your commercial Cyclone & a Vertex is the BTH 120 & up have powered anode rods & submerged combustion chambers, the Cyclone 80 &
100 do not.
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