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Repairing a heat pump leak? wgd 05-02-2008
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Posted by Paul M. Eldridge on May 2, 2008, 8:28 pm

>My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....

>The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
>all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
>have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....

Separate from its physical condition, your system is twenty-five years
old and likely well past its economic life. The SEER ratings of
today's new units are double that of your current system, so your
cooling costs could very well be a lot higher than they need be --
ditto your heating costs. Depending upon local climate, your home's
heating and cooling loads and utility rates, it might make sense to
replace your system now, especially if those rates are steadily moving
upward.

Heat pumps have advanced considerably over the past twenty-five years
and in the last two to three years in particular. Again, you might
want to take advantage of those gains now, especially if your current
system is starting to show its age. Whatever you decide, good luck!

Cheers,
Paul

Tankless Water Heaters 468x60
Posted by Mark on May 2, 2008, 10:24 pm
wrote:
> >My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....
> >The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
> >all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
> >have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....
>
>

the epoxy probably will never work becasue the refrigerent is always
under pressure and will force its way out before the epoxy can set...

I would do one of two things

1) find a pro that will repair the leak for a resonable charge by
soldering or replacing that section,,,, you might want to check the
rest of the line to make sure the rest of it is not also corroded and
readay to go....

2) if the leak is slow enough say that it needs refilling once a year
or so...buy a set of hoses and adapters and learn how to refill the
system yourself... can you buy R22 these days?


Mark

Posted by Paul M. Eldridge on May 3, 2008, 12:50 pm
On Fri, 02 May 2008 21:28:08 -0300, Paul M. Eldridge

>
>>My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983....
>
>>The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
>>all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
>>have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units....
>
>Separate from its physical condition, your system is twenty-five years
>old and likely well past its economic life. The SEER ratings of
>today's new units are double that of your current system, so your
>cooling costs could very well be a lot higher than they need be --
>ditto your heating costs. Depending upon local climate, your home's
>heating and cooling loads and utility rates, it might make sense to
>replace your system now, especially if those rates are steadily moving
>upward.
>
>Heat pumps have advanced considerably over the past twenty-five years
>and in the last two to three years in particular. Again, you might
>want to take advantage of those gains now, especially if your current
>system is starting to show its age. Whatever you decide, good luck!

Just to expand on my previous point. I don't know what you pay in
heating and cooling costs now, but for argument's sake I'm going to
assume it's something in the range of $1,200.00 a year. If a new heat
pump can cut those costs in half (and a 50 per cent reduction is the
bare minimum I would expect compared to a twenty-five year old
system), your savings are $600.00 a year.

If the cost of the replacement heat pump is $5,000.00, say, and your
first year savings are $600.00, you will have earned a 12 per cent
return on your investment. Furthermore, if electricity rates increase
at a higher rate than either your cost of borrowing or the return you
earn on your other investments, your financial gain continues to
improve over time. Also bear in mind that you pay for electricity
with after tax dollars, so the $600.00 you spend on additional
utilities represents perhaps $800.00 or $900.00 in pre-tax income.
And unlike other cash generating investments, your savings in utility
costs are not taxable -- this money is all yours to keep or spend as
you wish.

Going forward, I expect electricity costs to move sharply higher and
an investment like this greatly lessens your exposure to this upside
risk. In addition, as someone else pointed out earlier, delaying your
purchase by one or more years could hurt you badly -- copper prices
have shot through the roof and so too freight and all the other
expenses of running a business. These cost increases far exceed the
rate of inflation and are ultimately borne by the consumer.

If the numbers I've used above are fairly representative and you delay
your purchase by just TWO years, your additional out-of-pocket
expenses could exceed two thousand dollars. For example:

1) forfeited electricity savings: $636.00 + $674.00 = $1,310.00
(assumes a 6% increase in years one and two)

2) equipment and labour increases: $400.00 + $432.00 = $832.00
(assumes an 8 per cent increase in years one and two)

The combined two-year loss in this example is $2,142.00 and that
number doesn't include the cost of any future repairs.

You say the service guy just wants to sell you a new system,
presumably in your mind because he wants to make a quick or easy buck.
Well, I can't speak to this individual's motivations, but I can tell
you that keeping your current system could very well cost you a lot
more than you realize and that rather than dismissing his advice
outright, you should explore all options. As a final note, there are
members of this group who are far more knowledgeable about these
systems than me and would be happy to offer their own two cents; but
please don't assume they're steering you in one direction or the other
simply because of some hidden or ulterior motive. Again, good luck!

Cheers,
Paul

Posted by SteveB on May 3, 2008, 12:19 am

> My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983. For
> many years I used the local company which installed it for service.
> They were pretty good until about 6 years ago when they were bought by
> another company. Now I have little or no confidence in the people they
> send.
>
> The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading to
> the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been about
> 18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because over
> time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.
>
> http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/wgdus/Heat-pump-leak.jpg
>
> The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump. That's
> all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section still
> have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units.
>
> "Wow, a leak! This is almost as good as a new unit sale!", thinks the
> service guy. And he quotes me a repair price of about $1000 to fix it!
>
> The repair would require extracting the freon to a recovery unit.
> Cutting out and replacing the joint (or repair existing joint). Then
> replacing the freon. Apparently this would be about a 2 hr. procedure
> for someone who knew what they were doing.
>
> I told him no. I thought the price was excessive plus I wouldn't trust
> anyone this company has sent in the last few years to perform a repair
> like this.
>
> I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
> was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
> the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if possible.
>
> Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
> This stuff here from Home Depot.
>
> http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp
>
> I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to each
> side of the joint to seal it.
>
> Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
> your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.
>
> PS: If you would like to read something from an HVAC service guy who is
> willing to admit exactly what happens in heat pump servicing (which is
> almost as bad as appliance repair) you might want to check out the link
> below.
>
> http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/heatpump.html

A 1983 heat pump is the equivalent of a 94 year old person. If it is still
living, it is one of the exceptional ones.

Figure it like this. (And I speak from experience.) You can throw money
down the toilet on this unit, or just get a new one. The higher SEER
ratings on the new one will save you a lot on energy costs. You won't be
paying someone to come out and fix various things on this one. It's all the
same age ........ compressor ......... fan motors ......... capacitors
....... etc, etc, etc. You fix this one week, and that the next week.

As with any 94 year old, you need to pull the plug sometime, uncomfortable
as it is. Or just keep paying for a quality of life or service that doesn't
amount to much.

Steve



Posted by Red Green on May 2, 2008, 11:23 pm

>
>> My townhouse has the original York Champion heat pump from 1983. For
>> many years I used the local company which installed it for service.
>> They were pretty good until about 6 years ago when they were bought
>> by another company. Now I have little or no confidence in the people
>> they send.
>>
>> The last time I had service the guy noticed a leak in a pipe leading
>> to the inside unit. It is in an upstairs utility room. It had been
>> about 18 months since the last service. The leak was obvious because
>> over time it penetrated the pipe insulation. See picture below.
>>
>> http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n39/wgdus/Heat-pump-leak.jpg
>>
>> The service guy had been busy trying to sell me a new heat pump.
>> That's all they want to do. My two closest neighbors in this section
>> still have their original York heat pumps. They were just good units.
>>
>> "Wow, a leak! This is almost as good as a new unit sale!", thinks the
>> service guy. And he quotes me a repair price of about $1000 to fix
>> it!
>>
>> The repair would require extracting the freon to a recovery unit.
>> Cutting out and replacing the joint (or repair existing joint). Then
>> replacing the freon. Apparently this would be about a 2 hr. procedure
>> for someone who knew what they were doing.
>>
>> I told him no. I thought the price was excessive plus I wouldn't
>> trust anyone this company has sent in the last few years to perform a
>> repair like this.
>>
>> I got a recommendation from a neighbor for an HVAC tech they use who
>> was recommended to them by another neighbor. I'll probably use him in
>> the future. But I still want to avoid an expensive repair if
>> possible.
>>
>> Here's my $4 solution for your consideration - plumbing epoxy putty.
>> This stuff here from Home Depot.
>>
>> http://www.pcepoxy.com/puttyepoxies/pcplumbing.asp
>>
>> I would clean the pipe joint with alcohol then apply the putty to
>> each side of the joint to seal it.
>>
>> Do you think this a viable repair method? I would really appreciate
>> your opinions since this newsgroup gives such great advice.
>>
>> PS: If you would like to read something from an HVAC service guy who
>> is willing to admit exactly what happens in heat pump servicing
>> (which is almost as bad as appliance repair) you might want to check
>> out the link below.
>>
>> http://toad.net/~jsmeenen/heatpump.html
>
> A 1983 heat pump is the equivalent of a 94 year old person. If it is
> still living, it is one of the exceptional ones.
>
> Figure it like this. (And I speak from experience.) You can throw
> money down the toilet on this unit, or just get a new one. The higher
> SEER ratings on the new one will save you a lot on energy costs. You
> won't be paying someone to come out and fix various things on this
> one. It's all the same age ........ compressor ......... fan motors
> ......... capacitors ....... etc, etc, etc. You fix this one week,
> and that the next week.
>
> As with any 94 year old, you need to pull the plug sometime,
> uncomfortable as it is. Or just keep paying for a quality of life or
> service that doesn't amount to much.
>
> Steve
>
>
>

Something like this Steve?

The cost of replacing now is $3000 (I have no idea. Just pulled a number
out of my a..,errr,...hat). The cost to repair the existing one is say
$300. In 4 months another repair for say $350. 9-12 months from now it's
diagnosed as terminal and you decide to bite the bullet.

$3000 Replacement cost today
$ 300 1st Repair
$ 250 2nd repair @ 4 mos.
$ 100 Service call when diagnosed as terminal @ 12 mos.
$ 250 Price increase of replacement cost 12 months from now
$ 300 Aditional 12 month cost for electricity due to low SEER and age
        inefficiency

$4200 Cost to do in a year,

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