Sewage gases: check valve?

Posted by on October 23, 2009, 3:35 pm

On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:16:35 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

>On Oct 23, 1:52 pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>> He owned and ran one of the most respected plumbing firms in the area
>> - that's what I mean by "leading"
>> Well respected by contractors and homeowners - if you had a plumbing
>> problem and could get Ed, you got Ed.

>Sounds like a capable fellow.

>> The reason traps are almost universally used on washers is because
>> washers are USUALLY not hard-plumbed into the system. USUALLY they
>> dump into a laundry tub, and more commonly as time goes by, into a
>> standpipe connected to the laundrey tub drain. With an open
>> connection, a trap is required. With a "gravity drain" a pump is
>> required.
>> With a pumpout system that holds water in the pump, a trap is not
>> required.
>> It is still simpler, for most people, in most instances, to simply
>> provide a standpipe (with trap) or dump into a laundry tub - both of
>> which require the very simple installation of a trap.
>> And as I stated, if YOU want a trap, it is very simple in the
>> situation described to add a trap to the setup. According to my
>> plumber it is not required if done as described, but he did say it
>> would be very simple to include a trap if desired (or if the washer
>> pump did not hold enough water to maintain a seal). In his experience,
>> he has not found an automatic washer that does not retain enough water
>> to maintain a seal, UNLESS it has a siphon break at the top of the
>> washer, which could not only allow a gas vent, but could also prevent
>> pumping the water higher than the top of the washer.

>In existing houses, sure, the standpipe or tub drain is the way it's
>been done, and that's what people are used to, but what about new
>construction? New home builders aren't exactly the sort to throw
>money away. If the fitting is as simple as "insert hose, tighten
>clamp, and you're done", why would anyone bother with a trap at all?
>I am not saying it could not work, but it might not be allowed to
>work. If the building inspector says no, it's no. I wish there were
>some building inspectors on this newsgroup for such questions to
>provide an AHJ opinion.
>R

The builder would have to supply the washer for it to be a
"hard-plumbed" solution.

Posted by RicodJour on October 24, 2009, 2:30 am

On Oct 23, 3:35=A0pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:16:35 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

> >On Oct 23, 1:52=A0pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> >> He owned and ran one of the most respected plumbing firms in the area
> >> - that's what I mean by "leading"
> >> Well respected by contractors and homeowners - if you had a plumbing
> >> problem and could get Ed, you got Ed.

> >Sounds like a capable fellow.

> >> The reason traps are almost universally used on washers is because
> >> washers are USUALLY not hard-plumbed into the system. USUALLY they
> >> dump into a laundry tub, and more commonly as time goes by, into a
> >> standpipe connected to the laundrey tub drain. With an open
> >> connection, a trap is required. With a "gravity drain" a pump is
> >> required.
> >> With a pumpout system that holds water in the pump, a trap is not
> >> required.
> >> It is still simpler, for most people, in most instances, to simply
> >> provide a standpipe (with trap) or dump into a laundry tub - both of
> >> which require the very simple installation of a trap.
> >> And as I stated, if YOU want a trap, it is very simple in the
> >> situation described to add a trap to the setup. According to my
> >> plumber it is not required if done as described, but he did say it
> >> would be very simple to include a trap if desired (or if the washer
> >> pump did not hold enough water to maintain a seal). In his experience,
> >> he has not found an automatic washer that does not retain enough water
> >> to maintain a seal, UNLESS it has a siphon break at the top of the
> >> washer, which could not only allow a gas vent, but could also prevent
> >> pumping the water higher than the top of the washer.

> >In existing houses, sure, the standpipe or tub drain is the way it's
> >been done, and that's what people are used to, but what about new
> >construction? =A0New home builders aren't exactly the sort to throw
> >money away. =A0If the fitting is as simple as "insert hose, tighten
> >clamp, and you're done", why would anyone bother with a trap at all?
> >I am not saying it could not work, but it might not be allowed to
> >work. =A0If the building inspector says no, it's no. =A0I wish there wer=

> >some building inspectors on this newsgroup for such questions to
> >provide an AHJ opinion.

> The builder would have to supply the washer for it to be a
> "hard-plumbed" solution.

It would be no different than a cleanout. Until it's put into use
it's capped.

R

Posted by on October 23, 2009, 11:45 am

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 22:35:06 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour

>On Oct 22, 8:57 pm, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>> >Aaron Fude wrote:
>> >> My washer is basically at the same level as the main stack (or whatever
>> >> its horizontal equivalent). So there is not sufficient elevation to have
>> >> a p-trap on the exhaust (take my word for it - I just can't do it).
>> >> So I bought a check valve at HD. I think it's intended for a sump pump.
>> >> Will it solve my problem?
>> >> And if so - what's the best location to install it. The PVC exhaust that
>> >> the washer drains into has a vertical part that then flows into a
>> >> horizontal part. Is better to install the check valve is far down the
>> >> stream as possible? or the other way around? or six of one?
>> >another thought, unless your stated 'horizontal line' is on the ceiling,
>> >all you have to do is get above it. The washer will pump several feet
>> >of head without problem.

>> He said about 18 inches below the ceiling. There is NO problem Just
>> install as I recommended in an earlier post, as advised by my plumber.

>Curious. You see no possibility that your one plumber might have an
>opinion that is at variance with other plumbers, equally skilled, or a
>building inspector, who may be very skilled or not but still has the
>final word?
>This is the typical washing machine hose to PVC connector:
>http://doitbest.com/PVC+fittings-Fernco+Inc-model-PHG-1-doitbest-sku-416126.dib
>Note the little holes. You seem to be saying make a tight connection,
>no venting/equalization holes, no trap, and call it good. You're
>saying that a washing machine doesn't need a trap. If that were the
>case, why would anyone ever put in a trap? It's obviously simpler to
>do it your way.
>I don't necessarily foresee any complications in use doing it your
>way, but I don't see how it would pass code. Code calls for a trap.
>Some people don't care about code, many building (and home) inspectors
>do.
>Just saying...
>R

THAT fitting is not the one to use. It is made for use with a
"standpipe"
Dumping directly into a 4" sewer lateral does not require external
venting, as the pipe does not flow anywhere near full, and so is "self
venting" to the stack.

A trap works by keeeping a "wet seal". A washing machine drain pump is
at the bottom of the machine and ALWAYS holds water unless gravity
drained. Since the hose goes UP from the pump, water will always
remain in the "trap" of the pump when the pump is shut off.

A trap is only required to keep gases from being able to exit to the
inhouse environment - and I did state that an "s trap" could be
installed if you felt it was required. - but in my plumber's extensive
experience it has not been an issue.

So yes, in answer to your question, an airtight connection with no
venting or equalization holes, and in all likelihood no trap either.
If you want to be "safe" install a trap above the sewer latteral and
then continue as described.

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Sewage gases: check valve? - Page 7