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Posted by dpb on October 14, 2009, 2:42 pm
blueman wrote:
...
show/hide quoted text
>> As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
>> large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from
>> the ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what
>> you think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
>> drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
>> that's me; others like the other.
> This is what I wanted to know.
> I didn't want to go around notching or drilling only to find out a few
> days later that I violated a key code item or created structural
> integrity issues.
Well, you still _could_, but nobody here can see the actual construction
you have to tell. :)
In general, you can drill a hole near the center of a structural element
within code for wiring as long as the diameter is "small" wrt to the
element itself. There's actually some guidelines iirc but I don't know
them otomh and again they'll be general for things like joists, etc.
A notch at the lower edge of an unsupported beam/joist is structurally
more damaging than the hole in the middle because it leads to stress
concentration points at the point the longitudinal fibers of the beam
are cut. Generally, as long as it's relatively small, that'll not be an
issue; there's normally far more than enough material in the structure
that the amount removed to clear a piece of romex will not be missed.
But, of course, there's always that one-in-a-million strange situation
that could be the killer...it isn't at all likely, but nobody can say
uncategorically that your modification is ok w/o seeing it.
That said, again, it's not something likely and I'm not trying to raise
concern, simply stating that since nobody in a.h.r can see your
situation all can do is provide a general guide. If you were to see
something you think is questionable, then you need to get hands-on local
advice.
...
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Posted by Steve Barker on October 14, 2009, 2:25 pm
dpb wrote:
show/hide quoted text
> blueman wrote:
> ...
>
>> But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
>> and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.
>> The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
>> perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
>> get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.
>> I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
>> doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
>> concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).
> ...
>
> W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a specific
> situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make enough
> access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more professional" in
> the end to have the two seams patched than a whole bunch of 'em--and
> you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway to get thru 'em
> unless you do go under.
>
> As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
> large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from the
> ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what you
> think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
> drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
> that's me; others like the other.
>
> Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
> inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed w/o
> the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to do
> the finish. The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
> whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid something
> but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.
>
> imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...
>
> --
I've experienced this exact phenomenon. A few days ago, i realized i
had a bad cast iron sewer stack in the lower level of a two story house.
A year ago i would have sweated about how to access this pipe and
repair the plaster wall that was covered with paneling. Two days ago i
merely grabbed my claw bar and 3 pound hammer and took the entire wall
down to studs. A few sheets of sheetrock and it'll be like new in a few
days. And the cast iron sewer stack is repaired (with pvc and fernco's)
already. As a bonus, i'll also have two new outlets in properly mounted
show/hide quoted text
boxes in this wall. <G>
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Posted by DD_BobK on October 14, 2009, 6:05 pm
> blueman wrote:
> ...
> > But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
> > and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.
> > The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
> > perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
> > get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.
> > I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
> > doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
> > concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).
> ...
> W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a specific
> situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make enough
> access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more professional" in
> the end to have the two seams patched than a whole bunch of 'em--and
> you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway to get thru 'em
> unless you do go under.
> As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
> large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from the
> ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what you
> think is simpler. =A0There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
> drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
> that's me; others like the other.
> Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
> inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed w/o
> the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to do
> the finish. =A0The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
> whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid something
> but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.
> imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...
> --
>>>Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er-<<<<
Amen on that! I used to fiddy f... around worrying about doing to
much damage / demo.
More but "thoughtful" demo (like back to a corner, an entire wall, mid-
stud, etc) is easier & faster to get the new work done AND restore
the entire system to working order than "selective" / piecemeal demo
method
Thats why for a bathroom or a kitchen (unless some cool vintage stuff
is being saved) its better to go all the way to studs (well, at least
on the plumbing & electrical walls) .
Sorry I didn;t address "how to get around the corner" of the top
plates & the joist at the wall (or at the plate)........ missed it.
I would drill up through the double top plate with ~7/8 bit & then a
intersecting hole at the center line of the joist.
Both of these holes are a snap to drill if you use the strip method of
access.
a pieced of romex can be poked / fished this way...install a nail
plate on the both top plates & you;re done.
cheers
Bob
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Posted by John Grabowski on October 14, 2009, 2:03 pm
show/hide quoted text
>I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
> the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
> joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
> ceiling)
> Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
> 1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
> the ceiling joist bay?
> 2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
> wall edge to the center light location?
> Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
> to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.
> I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
> least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
> I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
> angle to go through the middle of the joist.
> However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
> transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.
> Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
> online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
> such as using a flex bit)
*Those long flexible bits are very nice, but I rarely use them. There are
usually obstacles such as wiring, water pipes and duct that the bit can
damage by drilling blindly. What I do is make an access hole in the center
between joists and drill each one with a regular ship auger bit. I cut the
holes at a 45 degree angle and am able to put the pieces back. For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw or
an angle grinder. Before you cut anything you should consider how you will
patch the holes.
My first choice to run a wire up from a switch into the ceiling is to make a
long narrow hole on the wall below the ceiling so my drill with bit will fit
in the space. Then I drill up at an angle towards where I want my wire to
go. Another option is to notch the top plate lay the wire in and put a
steel nail plate over the wire. I prefer the first method because it is
easier to patch when I cut the drywall at a 45 degree angle and I can
sometimes avoid cutting into the ceiling if other factors are good.
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Posted by Joe on October 14, 2009, 2:26 pm
show/hide quoted text
>snip<
>=A0For plaster
> and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw o=
> an angle grinder.
If you are trying to cut through a lathe, a Victor cutting torch and
#2 tip would work better. A shade 8 shield for the eyes is good, as
well as leather gloves and apron.
OTOH, if the OP is working with expanded metal lath and plaster, then
show/hide quoted text
carbide blades are the ticket. <G>
Joe
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>> large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from
>> the ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what
>> you think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
>> drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
>> that's me; others like the other.
> This is what I wanted to know.
> I didn't want to go around notching or drilling only to find out a few
> days later that I violated a key code item or created structural
> integrity issues.