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Subject Author Date
Unusual event H 06-20-2007
---> Re: Unusual event William Underhi...06-20-2007
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Posted by RBM on June 20, 2007, 10:47 pm
It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how that
could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each cable from
the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to verify each
conductor



> In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
> exactly where they go.
>
> Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
> simultaneously failed.
>
>
>> Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
>> continuous, or are there junction boxes
>>
>>
>>
>>> Same at both.
>>>
>>> Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about
>>> 5 years old (after a heavy up).
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
>>>> existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> L1 to L2 around 80V
>>>>> L1 to N - 127V
>>>>> L2 to N - 11V
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
>>>>>> but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
>>>>>> reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
>>>>>>>soon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is fine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem is at the other end of the line.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
>>>>>>>> indicated?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Both breakers are working perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
>>>>>>>>>> Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost
>>>>>>>>>> one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of
>>>>>>>>>> the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker
>>>>>>>>>> panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two
>>>>>>>>>> breakers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One is
>>>>>>>>>>> for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
>>>>>>>>>>> power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c
>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> H
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Electric Radiant Heat 468x60
Posted by H on June 20, 2007, 10:49 pm
Already done, and there is continuity, but the power down the "bad" leg is
bad.

I'll tear apart the wall near where the electrician ran the new wire, and
see if he possibly nicked both of the lines.

> It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how
> that could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each
> cable from the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to
> verify each conductor
>
>
>
>> In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
>> exactly where they go.
>>
>> Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
>> simultaneously failed.
>>
>>
>>> Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and airconditioner
>>> continuous, or are there junction boxes
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Same at both.
>>>>
>>>> Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about
>>>> 5 years old (after a heavy up).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
>>>>> existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> L1 to L2 around 80V
>>>>>> L1 to N - 127V
>>>>>> L2 to N - 11V
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the breaker,
>>>>>>> but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What exactly is the
>>>>>>> reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the AC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
>>>>>>>>soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is
>>>>>>>> fine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem is at the other end of the line.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
>>>>>>>>> indicated?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Both breakers are working perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
>>>>>>>>>>> Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you lost
>>>>>>>>>>> one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one leg of
>>>>>>>>>>> the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern breaker
>>>>>>>>>>> panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of just two
>>>>>>>>>>> breakers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One
>>>>>>>>>>>> is for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
>>>>>>>>>>>> power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor a/c
>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> H
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Posted by RBM on June 20, 2007, 10:55 pm
Even if he cut 99 percent through a wire, you'd still get a full voltage
reading . The dryer or airconditioner wouldn't work, but the no load reading
would indicate full voltage. The most puzzling thing is that its affecting
two independent cables and breakers. In the real world, that just doesn't
happen. let us know what you find. Good luck



> Already done, and there is continuity, but the power down the "bad" leg is
> bad.
>
> I'll tear apart the wall near where the electrician ran the new wire, and
> see if he possibly nicked both of the lines.
>
>> It sounds like you lost one leg of each cable, but I can't imagine how
>> that could have happened. At this point you'd need to disconnect each
>> cable from the breaker and at the load end, and do a continuity test to
>> verify each conductor
>>
>>
>>
>>> In theory, continuous, but they were laid 40 years ago, and I cannot see
>>> exactly where they go.
>>>
>>> Note that they were working perfectly until about a week ago, and
>>> simultaneously failed.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Are the cables that go from the breakers to the dryer and
>>>> airconditioner continuous, or are there junction boxes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Same at both.
>>>>>
>>>>> Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is
>>>>> about 5 years old (after a heavy up).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the same at the air as the dryer? Are these breakers new or
>>>>>> existing? are they full sized breakers or mini breakers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> L1 to L2 around 80V
>>>>>>> L1 to N - 127V
>>>>>>> L2 to N - 11V
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Each of the two double pole breakers reads 240 volts at the
>>>>>>>> breaker, but something less at the dryer and at the AC. What
>>>>>>>> exactly is the reading across the two hot legs at the dryer and the
>>>>>>>> AC?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I reread what I originally typed, and guess I sent the message too
>>>>>>>>>soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, the breakers are fine and the power in the breaker box is
>>>>>>>>> fine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem is at the other end of the line.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, you didn't lose any voltage at the breakers as you first
>>>>>>>>>> indicated?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Both breakers are working perfectly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like you lost one pole of each double pole breaker.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just loosing 11 volts wouldn't stop it from working. If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> lost one pole of each of those breakers you probably lost one
>>>>>>>>>>>> leg of the main breaker or the entire service. In a modern
>>>>>>>>>>>> breaker panel, there is pretty much no way to loose one leg of
>>>>>>>>>>>> just two breakers
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my breaker box, I have two 40A breakers side by side. One
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is for the A/C, one is for the electric dryer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seemingly simultaneously, both of them experienced a loss of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> power (around 11V) on one leg. Thus, neither the dryer nor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a/c work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can anyone imagine how this could happen, seemingly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simultaneously?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> H
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



Posted by mm on June 21, 2007, 12:41 am

Have you measured the voltage at the output of the breakers, in the
breaker box, when the AC and dryer are attempting to run?

Are the bad voltages you've given us at the receptacles? Or somewhere
else nearby? And are they when the AC and dryer are attempting to
run, or when they are OFF?

>Same at both.
>
>Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
>years old (after a heavy up).

They may be, but it bothers me that you keep saying they are both
wroking perfectly. AFAICT, all you have done is measure the voltage at
the output end of the breakers. There is more to working perfectly
than that. Like, Do they both trip at right current?

Not that any other problem would necessarily be related to the problem
you're posting about, and not that I can help you much with it, but on
principle and practice it bothers me that you keep saying they are
working *perfectly*. It also makes me think you are vulnerable to
missing something.


Posted by William Underhill on June 21, 2007, 11:31 pm
mm wrote:
>
> Have you measured the voltage at the output of the breakers, in the
> breaker box, when the AC and dryer are attempting to run?
>
> Are the bad voltages you've given us at the receptacles? Or somewhere
> else nearby? And are they when the AC and dryer are attempting to
> run, or when they are OFF?
>
>> Same at both.
>>
>> Full size breakers. Both are working perfectly. Each breaker is about 5
>> years old (after a heavy up).
>
> They may be, but it bothers me that you keep saying they are both
> wroking perfectly. AFAICT, all you have done is measure the voltage at
> the output end of the breakers. There is more to working perfectly
> than that. Like, Do they both trip at right current?
>
> Not that any other problem would necessarily be related to the problem
> you're posting about, and not that I can help you much with it, but on
> principle and practice it bothers me that you keep saying they are
> working *perfectly*. It also makes me think you are vulnerable to
> missing something.
>
Well, unless he's got a multi-amp tester floating about, he's not going
to be able to test the tripping current.

--
"Take sides! Always take sides! You may sometimes be wrong - but the man
who refuses to take sides must *always* be wrong! Heaven save us from
poltroons who fear to make a choice!" R.A. Heinlein, "Double Star"
--
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