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Vexing plumbing problem Dan Musicant 04-18-2008
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Posted by Dan Musicant on April 18, 2008, 1:24 pm
My kitchen faucet does the drip, drip drip thing.

I shut off the water at the cold water shutoff, remove the stem from the
hot water valve at the kitchen sink and see one, two or three tiny
grains of sand, flaked iron, who knows what it is, but it's very tiny.
The stem is part of a new faucet I bought for the kitchen sink, around a
year ago, and it's the old fashioned rubber washer kind, not ceramic. I
brush off the "grains" with an old tooth brush and put the stem back
together, open the water and no more drip, drip drip. I never get this
with the cold water stem.

Problem is, I have to do this again every few days, maybe not for 10
days if I'm lucky. Unless I want to live with the drip, drip drip (and I
don't).

I had my water service replaced around a year ago, being the line that
transmits cold water from the meter at the curb to where it attaches to
the house service, a stretch of maybe 60 feet. This was necessitated
because the plumbers who did a trenchless sewer line replacement found
the water service in bad shape, bad enough where it sprung a pretty bad
leak. They may have caused that leak but they wouldn't fix it for free
or even a reduced rate, claiming that it was so old and in such bad
condition (galvanized pipe), that it simply needed replacement. So, I
paid them to do it because their bid was actually pretty good ($2200,
IIRC).

My tank water heater (40 gallon) was replaced by an on demand Noritz
system (free, because I qualified for a city program, and this was their
first foray into tankless, and I was a willing participant). I don't
really care for the tankless, but that's off topic.

They put in some copper pipe from the tankless heater, but the line that
goes from there to my kitchen sink is around 30-40 feet of no-doubt old
galvanized pipe, and giving off sediment, presumably the rusting innards
of the pipe. I reasoned that this is what's causing the tiny particles
on the rubber stem washer problem and thought I'd measure, buy the 30-40
feet of galvanized pipe that would be needed to replace what's there now
and do it myself, now that the weather has warmed up.

But I got to thinking... what if this is caused by something else? All
that work and the expense of the new pipe would have been for nothing.
So I decided to post here first. Can I "safely" assume that replacing
that pipe would fix this problem? I have pipe wrenches, a hack saw, even
a jigsaw with metal blades. I have a propane (and Mapp Gas) torch, too,
but I have never sweated copper pipe, but figure if I just replace the
old galvanized with galvanized, I won't need to do that. I don't intend
to live here indefinitely. I'll be looking to sell the house and find
one that suits me better. Thanks for your input/ideas, etc.

Dan

Posted by Speedy Jim on April 18, 2008, 4:04 pm
Dan Musicant wrote:

> My kitchen faucet does the drip, drip drip thing.
>
> I shut off the water at the cold water shutoff, remove the stem from the
> hot water valve at the kitchen sink and see one, two or three tiny
> grains of sand, flaked iron, who knows what it is, but it's very tiny.
> The stem is part of a new faucet I bought for the kitchen sink, around a
> year ago, and it's the old fashioned rubber washer kind, not ceramic. I
> brush off the "grains" with an old tooth brush and put the stem back
> together, open the water and no more drip, drip drip. I never get this
> with the cold water stem.
>
> Problem is, I have to do this again every few days, maybe not for 10
> days if I'm lucky. Unless I want to live with the drip, drip drip (and I
> don't).
>
> I had my water service replaced around a year ago, being the line that
> transmits cold water from the meter at the curb to where it attaches to
> the house service, a stretch of maybe 60 feet. This was necessitated
> because the plumbers who did a trenchless sewer line replacement found
> the water service in bad shape, bad enough where it sprung a pretty bad
> leak. They may have caused that leak but they wouldn't fix it for free
> or even a reduced rate, claiming that it was so old and in such bad
> condition (galvanized pipe), that it simply needed replacement. So, I
> paid them to do it because their bid was actually pretty good ($2200,
> IIRC).
>
> My tank water heater (40 gallon) was replaced by an on demand Noritz
> system (free, because I qualified for a city program, and this was their
> first foray into tankless, and I was a willing participant). I don't
> really care for the tankless, but that's off topic.
>
> They put in some copper pipe from the tankless heater, but the line that
> goes from there to my kitchen sink is around 30-40 feet of no-doubt old
> galvanized pipe, and giving off sediment, presumably the rusting innards
> of the pipe. I reasoned that this is what's causing the tiny particles
> on the rubber stem washer problem and thought I'd measure, buy the 30-40
> feet of galvanized pipe that would be needed to replace what's there now
> and do it myself, now that the weather has warmed up.
>
> But I got to thinking... what if this is caused by something else? All
> that work and the expense of the new pipe would have been for nothing.
> So I decided to post here first. Can I "safely" assume that replacing
> that pipe would fix this problem? I have pipe wrenches, a hack saw, even
> a jigsaw with metal blades. I have a propane (and Mapp Gas) torch, too,
> but I have never sweated copper pipe, but figure if I just replace the
> old galvanized with galvanized, I won't need to do that. I don't intend
> to live here indefinitely. I'll be looking to sell the house and find
> one that suits me better. Thanks for your input/ideas, etc.
>
> Dan


I'll be surprised if it's flakes of rust from the galv pipe.

It might be solidified calcium deposits from the heater.

See if you can collect some particles and then pour a few
drops of muriatic acid over them. If there is frothing
and the particles pretty much disappear after a while, that
would indicate calcium/other minerals.

Jim

Posted by dpb on April 18, 2008, 4:15 pm
Speedy Jim wrote:
> Dan Musicant wrote:
>
>> My kitchen faucet does the drip, drip drip thing.
>>
>> I shut off the water at the cold water shutoff, remove the stem from the
>> hot water valve at the kitchen sink and see one, two or three tiny

Not really pertinent to the drip, but there isn't a cutoff valve at the
sink for the hot and cold? Should be...
...
>> brush off the "grains" with an old tooth brush and put the stem back
>> together, open the water and no more drip, drip drip. I never get this
>> with the cold water stem.
...
>> They put in some copper pipe from the tankless heater, but the line that
>> goes from there to my kitchen sink is around 30-40 feet of no-doubt old
>> galvanized pipe, and giving off sediment, presumably the rusting innards
>> of the pipe. I reasoned that this is what's causing the tiny particles
...

> I'll be surprised if it's flakes of rust from the galv pipe.
>
> It might be solidified calcium deposits from the heater.
>
> See if you can collect some particles and then pour a few
> drops of muriatic acid over them. If there is frothing
> and the particles pretty much disappear after a while, that
> would indicate calcium/other minerals.

Vinegar will do the same test and more likely to have it around.

A filter would probably solve the problem -- it's pretty clear it has to
be in the hot line. I'd not rule out the recently completed work has
disturbed old piping and still getting some particulate from that.

It would, imo, be highly likely that removing the galvanized would
probably solve the problem although w/ time it'll either go away as
finish flushing out the system completely or it'll get worse if you
actually have a portion of that line that is actively deteriorating and
is the source.

--

Posted by on April 18, 2008, 7:04 pm

:Speedy Jim wrote:
:> Dan Musicant wrote:
:>
:>> My kitchen faucet does the drip, drip drip thing.
:>>
:>> I shut off the water at the cold water shutoff, remove the stem from the
:>> hot water valve at the kitchen sink and see one, two or three tiny
:
:Not really pertinent to the drip, but there isn't a cutoff valve at the
:sink for the hot and cold? Should be...

Actually, now that you mention it, there is a cutoff but not at the
kitchen sink. It's at the heater, which is located on an outside wall. I
could as easily use it, I just forgot about it. I guess it's force of
habit, because the first time I didn't know if it was the hot or cold
stem that was letting in the water. It's a slow drip, around every 2-3
second, usually.
:...
:>> brush off the "grains" with an old tooth brush and put the stem back
:>> together, open the water and no more drip, drip drip. I never get this
:>> with the cold water stem.
:...
:>> They put in some copper pipe from the tankless heater, but the line that
:>> goes from there to my kitchen sink is around 30-40 feet of no-doubt old
:>> galvanized pipe, and giving off sediment, presumably the rusting innards
:>> of the pipe. I reasoned that this is what's causing the tiny particles
:...
:
:> I'll be surprised if it's flakes of rust from the galv pipe.
:>
:> It might be solidified calcium deposits from the heater.
:>
:> See if you can collect some particles and then pour a few
:> drops of muriatic acid over them. If there is frothing
:> and the particles pretty much disappear after a while, that
:> would indicate calcium/other minerals.
:
:Vinegar will do the same test and more likely to have it around.

Yeah, I sure do have vinegar, no muriatic acid. I'll try that. I cleared
the stem this morning, so it will have to wait a few days until it
starts dripping again.
:
:A filter would probably solve the problem -- it's pretty clear it has to
:be in the hot line. I'd not rule out the recently completed work has
:disturbed old piping and still getting some particulate from that.
:
:It would, imo, be highly likely that removing the galvanized would
:probably solve the problem although w/ time it'll either go away as
:finish flushing out the system completely or it'll get worse if you
:actually have a portion of that line that is actively deteriorating and
:is the source.

One thing I didn't think of is opening up the kitchen hot stem and
letting it flow full on for a minute or two. I usually have a pretty
restricted flow.

Thanks.

Dan


Posted by on April 18, 2008, 7:21 pm

:
:A filter would probably solve the problem -- it's pretty clear it has to
:be in the hot line. I'd not rule out the recently completed work has
:disturbed old piping and still getting some particulate from that.
:
:It would, imo, be highly likely that removing the galvanized would
:probably solve the problem although w/ time it'll either go away as
:finish flushing out the system completely or it'll get worse if you
:actually have a portion of that line that is actively deteriorating and
:is the source.

"A filter would probably solve the problem..."

There IS a filter at the about-one-year-old Noritz Model N-069M-OD
tankless gas-powered externally installed water heater. They said to
clean it out occasionally, maybe every 6 months. I've cleaned it at
least a couple of times. I'm going to go out there now and clean it
again. Don't know that it will do any good. It's a fine metal screen.

I just cleaned it out. It's a very fine screen, but it's installed just
before the water enters the heater. It had a fair amount of particles in
it of varying sizes, from very tiny to relatively large. Nowhere near
enough to slow down the flow, though. I'd have to think that what's
causing the drip didn't come through that filter, though. Well, I'd be
surprised if it did.

Dan


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