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Posted by Harry K on November 6, 2006, 10:33 am
ChitaShines wrote:
> On 5 Nov 2006 20:14:06 -0800, Harry K wrote:
> > Flat roofs are a design that should be banned.
>
> Hello Harry,
>
> A "California Roof" isn't a flat roof or even a 'flatter' roof.
> It's a roof where the top line at the peak is longer than the bottom line
> at the eaves.
>
> But, knowing what a California Roof is does nothing to tell us whence the
> term California Roof.
>
> Does anyone know where the term "California Roof" originated and why?
Oops. Must have been a senior moment. I have no idea how that got
there. I was replying to a post somewhere about leaks in flat roofs.
Harry K
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Posted by Snidely on November 6, 2006, 7:35 pm
ChitaShines wrote:
[...]
> A "California Roof" isn't a flat roof or even a 'flatter' roof.
> It's a roof where the top line at the peak is longer than the bottom line
> at the eaves.
Can't say I'm familiar either with the term or with examples, although
some European cottages that were the model for the Witch's Gingerbread
House seem to stick out farther at the peak than at the eaves.
> But, knowing what a California Roof is does nothing to tell us whence the
> term California Roof.
Occasionally, it points out who might have started using the term.
>
> Does anyone know where the term "California Roof" originated and why?
I haven't a clue. But maybe RicodJour is right that the term is
foreign to California. It would be foreign to Oregon, too, if my
memory serves.
(the google book link didn't come up with an Owens book for me, and the
Sunset magazine from 1898 looks to be a "in California [dramatic pause]
roof gardens are common" thing. There might be a few roof gardens
left out here, but that doesn't help the question in hand.)
/dps
/dps
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Posted by ChitaShines on November 5, 2006, 11:22 pm
On 5 Nov 2006 16:26:09 -0800, tinwhistler wrote:
>> When did people first start using the term "California Roof" and why?
> This finding at Google-Books may be a starter for the necessary
> research:
>
http://books.google.com/books?q=%22California%20roof%22&sa=N&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=gp
Hello TinWhistler,
I do thank you for your help but, not having the book in hand, it sure
doesn't seem like the book is explaining the "origin" of the term
"California Roof".
The book seems to explain how to build a "California Roof" but not whence
the name "California Roof".
Why wouldn't this roofing technique be called a "New Jersey" roof for
example? Or a "Low-Pitched Roof". Or a "Hot-Climate Roof"?
Is there any way to find out who coined the word "California Roof"?
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Posted by tinwhistler on November 6, 2006, 12:52 am
ChitaShines wrote:
> On 5 Nov 2006 16:26:09 -0800, tinwhistler wrote:
> >> When did people first start using the term "California Roof" and why?
> > This finding at Google-Books may be a starter for the necessary
> > research:
> >
http://books.google.com/books?q=%22California%20roof%22&sa=N&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=gp
>
> Hello TinWhistler,
> I do thank you for your help but, not having the book in hand, it sure
> doesn't seem like the book is explaining the "origin" of the term
> "California Roof".
>
> The book seems to explain how to build a "California Roof" but not whence
> the name "California Roof".
>
> Why wouldn't this roofing technique be called a "New Jersey" roof for
> example? Or a "Low-Pitched Roof". Or a "Hot-Climate Roof"?
>
> Is there any way to find out who coined the word "California Roof"?
Finding the true origin of any word or phrase can be exceedingly
difficult. All I offered was a starting point for research, a target
-- if anyone can come up with a sighting that antedates 1984, an older
target is created. Having followed the postings at the American
Dialect Society for considerable time periods, I've seen fairly
well-researched origins antedated by years, even centuries. Very few
experienced word-origin researchers think that a California sports
writer who credited "jazz" to a rookie baseball pitcher in 1913
actually ended the quest for that origin -- it's an on-going process.
There are quite a number of solid contributors at AUE who are
particularly good researchers, frequently "pushing envelopes" back
further in time on such origins. Regrettably, I don't have their
resources (no newspaper archive subscriptions) or their intelligence or
patient perseverance to get comparable results. Maybe if you persist a
bit more you'll get real help, as there are experts who do read many
postings here.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
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Posted by tinwhistler on November 6, 2006, 3:25 pm
tinwhistler wrote:
[snip]
> Very few
> experienced word-origin researchers think that a California sports
> writer who credited "jazz" to a rookie baseball pitcher in 1913
> actually ended the quest for that origin -- it's an on-going process.
[snip]
As a footnote, I'll add an excerpt from Gerald Cohen's posting at ADS
in Jan 2005:
1) A bibliographic reference is my compilation (with due credit given)
"_Jazz_ Revisited: On The Origin Of The Term--Draft #2" in: Comments on
Etymology, vol. 32, no 4-5 (Dec.2002/Jan. 2003, 91 pp. --- Draft #3
will appear sometime in the next 12 months incorporating the later
disicussion.
2) In 1913, "jazz" was heralded as a new word which had just entered
the language, and the first attestations were in connection with
baseball. There were none at this time--none at all--in reference to
music. As for the sexual use of "jazz," this must have come some time
after 1913. Even if the worldly-wise sports writers of the San
Francisco Bulletin were unaware of the sexual meaning of "jazz" (had it
existed then), someone would have certainly tapped them on the shoulder
to clue them in. The term could not have been used repeatedly as it was
in the 1913 baseball columns if it had a sexual meaning at that time.
3) As for "jazz" referring to a type of music in New Orleans prior to
1913, there are no contemporary attestations of this--none, zip, nada.
4) Daniel Cassidy attaches importance to the term "jazz" being first
used by Irishmen (Gleeson, Slattery); Slattery reportedly first heard
it as an incantation in a crapshooting game he happened to witness. But
Gleeson's Irish background had absolutely nothing to do with his
acquiring and then using the term. And Slattery apparently didn't use
the term in 1913 beyond telling Gleeson the story about the
crapshooting game. Also, the crapshooters might have been Irish, but
they just as plausibly could have been African-American.
5) The etymology of "jazz" is still open for discussion. I.e., if the
crapshooting story is correct (and I find it credible; all the rest of
Gleeson's 1938 account--except for one minor detail--is validated in
the 1913 newspapers), the crapshooting "jazz" (in: "Come on, the old
jazz!") might plausibly derive from now obsolete "jasm" (energy,
force). The incantation would then have meant roughly "May the force be
with me."
6) So bringing Irish into the picture adds nothing to what we already
know and is based on no evidence other than a possible similarity in
sound (how close?) between "jazz" and Irish teas (sp.?).
7) A remaining point of uncertainty concerns the very few attestations
of "jazz" in 1912, so named by Portland pitcher Ben Henderson because
(according to Henderson), his jazz pitch "wobbles". My guess (and it is
only that) is that it is somehow connected with "jag" (intoxication;
"jags" in plural?). Now, if some similar-sounding Irish word meaning
"wobble" could be found, maybe an Irish connection would be worthy of
further consideration here.
[end excerpt]
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
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