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Why do (pool) water test strips have both a pH and Alkalinity Low to High scale?

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Why do (pool) water test strips have both a pH and Alkalinity Low to High scale? bent 06-16-2008
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Posted by bent on June 16, 2008, 6:57 pm
from http://www.poolcenter.com/watbal.htm

under the pH text:
"To have pH in balance we adjust the water with additions of pH increasers
(bases) or pH de-creasers (acids) to achieve the range of 7.2 - 7.8. If
....pH value below 7.2 ... you will need to add a base to ....[if] above
7.8, ....add an acid"

& under the TA text:
"Low alkalinity is raised by the addition of a base (similar to pH); sodium
bicarbonate is commonly used. High levels of alkalinity are lowered by the
addition of an acid (similar to pH)."

So to fix my low pH and low TA according to the poolcenter's (above) text

to fix low pH : add a base
to fix low TA : add a base

That is just deduced from their text

Sodium Bicarbonate is the recommended base, to raise a low TA, under the
poolcenter's TA text. I have two different brands of "pH Up/Boost"
chemicals and they are both "sodium carbonate".

But I have no chemical labelled for TA Up/Boost. Is it the same one? [The
Na-C?] So seriously, at this point, I'd just be happy with like a solution
to the current problem! Hello.

I do have a chemical labelled for pH down, which is "acid sulphate of soda"
which says "to lower pH and alkalinity of swimming pool water".

p.s.
I have three different brands of test strips here & all three have both pH
and TA scales.

I thought I had a point to this, and I had the evidence, but all I can tell
you now is that I don't think I can remember my name! So if high is high
add low. And If low is high add low. No, what? Am I high?


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Posted by bent on June 16, 2008, 7:15 pm
I think I now have also another logical legitimate good question, too,
stemming from this. If the pH and TA responded the same to the same
chemical additions under the same conditions so far: does that mean that the
chemical for fixing a high pH and the chemical for fixing a high TA woud be
the same?

Oh, wait I just wrote this didn't I: "I do have a chemical labelled for pH
down, which is "acid sulphate of soda" which says "to lower pH and
alkalinity of swimming pool water"."

So there are only 2 chemicals for the four possible problems of:
pH low
pH high
TA low
TA high
?


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Posted by Don Young on June 16, 2008, 11:23 pm

> Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
> (6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
> chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
> square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
> water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
> reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
> colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,
> and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are
> technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,
> but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old strips
> and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can
> get with age?
>
> This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):
>
> I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number
> is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
> concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is
> about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character.
> If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it
> is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by
> definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cannot
> be alkaline and be acidic too.
>
> So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which read
> from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
> scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a low
> alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &
> low.
>
> Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
> problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated
> too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
> and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
> strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
> may be full of crud.
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----
It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust the
PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was something
you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had to
drain some water and replace it with fresh water.

Of course, I could be all wet. ;>)

Don Young



Posted by M Q on June 17, 2008, 12:33 pm
Don Young wrote:

>
>>Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
>>(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
>>chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
>>square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
>>water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
>>reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
>>colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,
>>and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have are
>>technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,
>>but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old strips
>>and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they can
>>get with age?
>>
>>This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):
>>
>>I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The number
>>is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
>>concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water is
>>about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical character.
>>If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it
>>is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by
>>definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cannot
>>be alkaline and be acidic too.
>>
>>So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which read
>>from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
>>scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a low
>>alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &
>>low.
>>
>>Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
>>problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated
>>too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
>>and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
>>strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
>>may be full of crud.
>>
>>
>>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
>>News==----
>>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
>>Newsgroups
>>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>>=----
>
> It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
> something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust the
> PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was something
> you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had to
> drain some water and replace it with fresh water.
>
> Of course, I could be all wet. ;>)
>
> Don Young
>
>
You more or less got it right:
pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration (lower number is
more acid and more hydrogen ions).
Total Akalinity is a measure of the amount of acid you have to add
to lower the pH.

In very pure water, only a little bit of acid (or a little bit of some alkali,
such as sodium carbonate) will cause dramatic changes in pH.

In water with years of pool chemical residues, it can take much more
pH adjustment chemicals to make much of a difference.
Such solutions might be described as highly buffered.



Posted by Mark on June 20, 2008, 2:19 pm
> Don Young wrote:
>
> >>Ok, anybody want to attempt to splain to me why there is both a "pH"
> >>(6.2-8.4) and a "Total Alkalinity" (0-240 ppm) scale on a pool water
> >>chemical test strip kit . I have been using the strips that have the 4
> >>square foam pads on the ~1/4" x 4" plastic strip that you dip in the
> >>water, wait and then compare the colours change on the pads to the
> >>reference colours on the label of the strips' bottle. The strips have a
> >>colour range for Total Bromine (0-20 ppm), Free Chlorine (0-10 ppm), pH,=

> >>and Alkalinity. Granted, it is likely that the strips I currently have a=
re
> >>technically past the expiration date, and I will get some new ones soon,=

> >>but firstly just to compare the results of the test between the old stri=
ps
> >>and new strips, so I cna finish them off. Any comments on how off they c=
an
> >>get with age?
>
> >>This is my problem - ngQ(uestion):
>
> >>I was taut in skool that pH and alkalinity was the same scale. The numbe=
r
> >>is determined from the definition regarding the hydronium ion
> >>concentration, and math or something like that. The pH of neutral water =
is
> >>about 7. That it, it is neither acidic nor base in its chemical characte=
r.
> >>If the number is low, like 3, it is "acidic" and if its high, like 9, it=

> >>is alkaline (base). But if it is acidic (low number on the pH scale), by=

> >>definiton it CANNOT be alkaline at the same time, or vice versa: it cann=
ot
> >>be alkaline and be acidic too.
>
> >>So why are there two scales on these (pool) water test strips, which rea=
d
> >>from low to high for both pH and Alkaline? There is a pH and a Alkaline
> >>scale!? So according to the pool companies you can have a low pH and a l=
ow
> >>alkaline pool at the same time, or high & high, or low & high, or high &=

> >>low.
>
> >>Because I go to the chemical cupboard for the right chemical to fix the
> >>problem (assuming all other parameters are being considerately moderated=

> >>too) and I find chemicals labelled "pH Up", "pH Down", "Alkalinity Up",
> >>and "Alkalinity Down"! And I don't want to do anything, (a) because the
> >>strips may be wrong (via expiration) or (b) the pool chemical companies
> >>may be full of crud.
>
> >>----=3D=3D Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usen=
et
> >>News=3D=3D----
> >>http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> >>Newsgroups
> >>----=3D East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> >>=3D----
>
> > It's been a long time but I seem to remember that Total Alkalinity was
> > something that built up over time as you kept adding chemicals to adjust=
the
> > PH one way or another. At that time I think Total Alkalinity was somethi=
ng
> > you wanted to stay as low as possible and when it got too high you had t=
o
> > drain some water and replace it with fresh water.
>
> > Of course, I could be all wet. ;>)
>
> > Don Young
>
> You more or less got it right:
> pH is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration (lower number is
> =A0 more acid and more hydrogen ions).
> Total Akalinity is a measure of the amount of acid you have to add
> to lower the pH.
>
> In very pure water, only a little bit of acid (or a little bit of some alk=
ali,
> such as sodium carbonate) will cause dramatic changes in pH.
>
> In water with years of pool chemical residues, it can take much more
> pH adjustment chemicals to make much of a difference.
> Such solutions might be described as highly buffered.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yes...

I look at it this way... if you have say 1 gallon of water and say 10
grams of acid and 10 grams of base, the pH is neutral and the total
alkaliinty is low...

but instead if you have 10 pounds of acid and 10 ponds of base, ( I
exagerate here) the pH is still balanced but the total alkalinity will
be high.

Mark

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