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condensation problems while taking a shower with newly installed bathroom exhaust fans

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condensation problems while taking a shower with newly installed bathroom exhaust fans youngi 02-04-2007
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Posted by on February 4, 2007, 8:55 pm


I've been trying to find an answer to this problem for over 2 weeks
now.

Here is the situation:

2 newly installed panasonic 80 cfm bathroom exhaust fans(the kind that
fit in a 2x4 joist space) in two different bathrooms. These fans have
their own internal flapper.

Bathroom 1: 8 x 4 x 8
Bathroom 2: 8 x 5 x 8

I'm using 3" sheet meal ducting(the kind you have to "snap" together)
going horizontally out the side walls instead of going straight out
the roof. They duct out to exhaust hoods which also have a flapper on
them. I also have put insulation on the whole duct run.(not tried
putting insulation on the fan housing yet due to mold concerns.)
The duct runs are about 4' each from the exhaust fan and slope
downward from the start of exhaust fan to the wall, so you would think
condensation would just drip out towards the wall. You can go outside
while the fan is running and seems like its pushing out plently of
air. The fans are mounted in between the shower and the vanity right
above the toilet. The are mounted at a downward angle since the
sheetrock ceiling has a downward shape that matches my open beam
ceiling slope patter.
My whole house is all open bean ceilings, there is no attic. The duct
run is made above newly installed sheetrock and the open beam
ceilings, with a 4" space between the sheetrock and the open beam
ceiling. My open beam ceilings are vaulted going downward towards the
side wall, so the ducting runs down the similar open beam downward
slope. The ducting is not bent at all in the larger of the bathrooms,
and has a slight bend in the smaller of the two bathrooms going out
the side wall.
When I take a shower in the smaller of the two bathrooms, after about
5-6 minutes, condensation starts leaking from the fan housing thru the
grille. I thought it was due to it being pretty cold outside, but
today was fairly warmer and the same results happended.
In the larger of the two bathrooms, it takes slightly longer to
condensate when taking a hot shower since its a bigger room, but it
happens in that bathroom as well.

Can anyone shed some light as to how I should go about solving this
issue, as I am out of ideas.

thanks,
Isaac


Posted by Joe on February 4, 2007, 9:18 pm


On Feb 4, 7:55 pm, you...@comcast.net wrote:
> I've been trying to find an answer to this problem for over 2 weeks
> now.
>
> Here is the situation:
>
> 2 newly installed panasonic 80 cfm bathroom exhaust fans(the kind that
> fit in a 2x4 joist space) in two different bathrooms. These fans have
> their own internal flapper.
>
> Bathroom 1: 8 x 4 x 8
> Bathroom 2: 8 x 5 x 8
>
> I'm using 3" sheet meal ducting(the kind you have to "snap" together)
> going horizontally out the side walls instead of going straight out
> the roof. They duct out to exhaust hoods which also have a flapper on
> them. I also have put insulation on the whole duct run.(not tried
> putting insulation on the fan housing yet due to mold concerns.)
> The duct runs are about 4' each from the exhaust fan and slope
> downward from the start of exhaust fan to the wall, so you would think
> condensation would just drip out towards the wall. You can go outside
> while the fan is running and seems like its pushing out plently of
> air. The fans are mounted in between the shower and the vanity right
> above the toilet. The are mounted at a downward angle since the
> sheetrock ceiling has a downward shape that matches my open beam
> ceiling slope patter.
> My whole house is all open bean ceilings, there is no attic. The duct
> run is made above newly installed sheetrock and the open beam
> ceilings, with a 4" space between the sheetrock and the open beam
> ceiling. My open beam ceilings are vaulted going downward towards the
> side wall, so the ducting runs down the similar open beam downward
> slope. The ducting is not bent at all in the larger of the bathrooms,
> and has a slight bend in the smaller of the two bathrooms going out
> the side wall.
> When I take a shower in the smaller of the two bathrooms, after about
> 5-6 minutes, condensation starts leaking from the fan housing thru the
> grille. I thought it was due to it being pretty cold outside, but
> today was fairly warmer and the same results happended.
> In the larger of the two bathrooms, it takes slightly longer to
> condensate when taking a hot shower since its a bigger room, but it
> happens in that bathroom as well.
>
> Can anyone shed some light as to how I should go about solving this
> issue, as I am out of ideas.
>
> thanks,
> Isaac

Every output needs an input. You need an air makeup grill in the wall,
door or wherever. The makeup air can come from any house area that is
dryer than the bath. You will be amazed at how much more output your
fans will have and I doubt you will see any more condensation.
Reminds me of the many times I've seen techs fight a wiring problem in
a car for hours only to find after all the struggle that it was a
problem in the ground, not the positive side. Remember moving air goes
in circuits, too. HTH

Joe


Posted by on February 4, 2007, 9:38 pm


> On Feb 4, 7:55 pm, you...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've been trying to find an answer to this problem for over 2 weeks
> > now.
>
> > Here is the situation:
>
> > 2 newly installed panasonic 80 cfm bathroom exhaust fans(the kind that
> > fit in a 2x4 joist space) in two different bathrooms. These fans have
> > their own internal flapper.
>
> > Bathroom 1: 8 x 4 x 8
> > Bathroom 2: 8 x 5 x 8
>
> > I'm using 3" sheet meal ducting(the kind you have to "snap" together)
> > going horizontally out the side walls instead of going straight out
> > the roof. They duct out to exhaust hoods which also have a flapper on
> > them. I also have put insulation on the whole duct run.(not tried
> > putting insulation on the fan housing yet due to mold concerns.)
> > The duct runs are about 4' each from the exhaust fan and slope
> > downward from the start of exhaust fan to the wall, so you would think
> > condensation would just drip out towards the wall. You can go outside
> > while the fan is running and seems like its pushing out plently of
> > air. The fans are mounted in between the shower and the vanity right
> > above the toilet. The are mounted at a downward angle since the
> > sheetrock ceiling has a downward shape that matches my open beam
> > ceiling slope patter.
> > My whole house is all open bean ceilings, there is no attic. The duct
> > run is made above newly installed sheetrock and the open beam
> > ceilings, with a 4" space between the sheetrock and the open beam
> > ceiling. My open beam ceilings are vaulted going downward towards the
> > side wall, so the ducting runs down the similar open beam downward
> > slope. The ducting is not bent at all in the larger of the bathrooms,
> > and has a slight bend in the smaller of the two bathrooms going out
> > the side wall.
> > When I take a shower in the smaller of the two bathrooms, after about
> > 5-6 minutes, condensation starts leaking from the fan housing thru the
> > grille. I thought it was due to it being pretty cold outside, but
> > today was fairly warmer and the same results happended.
> > In the larger of the two bathrooms, it takes slightly longer to
> > condensate when taking a hot shower since its a bigger room, but it
> > happens in that bathroom as well.
>
> > Can anyone shed some light as to how I should go about solving this
> > issue, as I am out of ideas.
>
> > thanks,
> > Isaac
>
> Every output needs an input. You need an air makeup grill in the wall,
> door or wherever. The makeup air can come from any house area that is
> dryer than the bath. You will be amazed at how much more output your
> fans will have and I doubt you will see any more condensation.
> Reminds me of the many times I've seen techs fight a wiring problem in
> a car for hours only to find after all the struggle that it was a
> problem in the ground, not the positive side. Remember moving air goes
> in circuits, too. HTH
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So you don't think its too cold in the space between open beam celing
and sheetrock?

The one thing I did which made it not leak at all, was to leave a
space heater on while taking a shower....the fan did operate much
better not even letting the bathroom mirror to fog up. So in this case
your theory proves correct except it wasn't just any air....it was
WARM air I was adding into the bathroom. Any thoughts about this as
well?

thanks so much for the prompt response



Posted by Joe on February 5, 2007, 12:43 pm



> The one thing I did which made it not leak at all, was to leave a
> space heater on while taking a shower....the fan did operate much
> better not even letting the bathroom mirror to fog up. So in this case
> your theory proves correct except it wasn't just any air....it was
> WARM air I was adding into the bathroom. Any thoughts about this as
> well?
>
> thanks so much for the prompt response

Pondering your duct sizing, could there be a mismatch? 3 x 14's are
42" sq,, 4 x 10's are 40"sq., 7" round 38.5" sq., Many bath fans use
4" round outlets (12.6 sq.") which prompted the question. Might be
your moist exhaust air is meandering down the ductwork and being over-
cooled on the trip.This suggests a) increasing the velocity with
smaller ducting, b) using fiberglass or insulated ductwork or, c) all
of the above and paying atterntion to makeup air, of course. HTH

Joe


Posted by on February 5, 2007, 1:29 pm


> > The one thing I did which made it not leak at all, was to leave a
> > space heater on while taking a shower....the fan did operate much
> > better not even letting thebathroommirror to fog up. So in this case
> > your theory proves correct except it wasn't just any air....it was
> > WARM air I was adding into thebathroom. Any thoughts about this as
> > well?
>
> > thanks so much for the prompt response
>
> Pondering your duct sizing, could there be a mismatch? 3 x 14's are
> 42" sq,, 4 x 10's are 40"sq., 7" round 38.5" sq., Many bath fans use
> 4" round outlets (12.6 sq.") which prompted the question. Might be
> your moist exhaust air is meandering down the ductwork and being over-
> cooled on the trip.This suggests a) increasing the velocity with
> smaller ducting, b) using fiberglass or insulated ductwork or, c) all
> of the above and paying atterntion to makeup air, of course. HTH
>
> Joe

Nope this fan uses a 3" duct and says so in the manual. its a
panasonic model FV-08VS1,,,,and for some reason they don't have it on
their website. Since it is a smaller fan(fits in a 2 x4 joist instead
of a 2x6 joist), that is the reason for the smaller ducting. The
makeup air does not seem to help, as leaving the bathroom door wide
open still results in a good amount of condensation. The condensation
is definitely coming from the fan housing itself as the duct slopes
downward AWAY from fan and has fiberglass insulation wrapped around
the ducting. Are you saying that by using even smaller ducting, that
it will increase the overall velocity?

I should also mention that we had the same problem using a nutone
model 695 which had 70cfm.

Perhaps we just need a stronger vent like 110 cfm?


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