dehumidifiers - Page 2

Posted by carneyke on June 20, 2007, 3:47 am

On Jun 19, 9:48 pm, "Proctologically Violated=A9=AE"

> Are you all distinguishing between an indoor dehumidifier and an A/C?
> An indoor dehumidifier provides *net heat* to the space while dehumidifyi=

ng,

> and an A/C cools, while providing the same (I think)dehumidification.
> I use both in my shop.
> Summer: A crappy Amana portable A/C, venting out of a hole in the wall,
> about 850 watts, and
> Winter: a brandX dehumidifier from Sam's/Costco, about 600 watts.
> Both produce prodigious amounts of water--the Amana, about 7,000 btu at a
> miserable 8.5 EER, cranks out about 5 gals/day, moderately humid weather.
> I wonder if a 40 W system could do that.
> An indoor dehumidifier is basically window A/C brought inside, and rigged=

> such a way that it doesn't freeze up. I've tried a regular window A/C as=

> indoor dehumidifer, and it worked, but froze.
> Also, A/C's cycle on temp, dehumidifiers cycle on, well, humidity. I hav=

e a

> broke dehumidifier, and I'm thinking of scavenging the humidity sensor and
> wiring it to the A/C--if that makes sense.
> --
> ------
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
> to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
> The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs

> > Nick has a "thing" for this gadget and is rehashing a "discussion" we h=

> > last
> > winter. He exaggerates the "badness" of dehumidifiers and IMO,
> > exaggerates the
> > goodness of his pet gadget.
> > I've measured my mid-quality GE dehumidifier using the equipment and
> > techniques
> > described here:
> >http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm
> > Feel free to download and use my spreadsheet. Bottom line, measuring l=

ong

> > term from
> > 11/04/06 to 04/23/07, my dehumidifier used 2.03 KWH per day or about 15
> > cents' worth
> > of power at our rate. The watt-hour meter is still connected and come
> > November, I'll
> > have a year's worth of data. I suspect that Nick's gadget will operate=

> > the same
> > ballpark of energy consumption. Meanwhile, my basement is both cool AND
> > precisely
> > controlled to 50% humidity. Me and my fairly large library love it.
> > There are more efficient dehumidifers available but as I correctly
> > anticipated, the
> > savings would take a lifetime to make up the difference in costs of the
> > machines.
> > John
> > wrote:

ow,

> >>> so a 6" pipe with an 8' height might make Pi(3/12)^2sqrt(8/2.5)75 =3D=

> >>> cfm
> >>> flow and remove about 26x60x0.075x0.01x24h =3D 28 pints per day of wa=

ter

> >>> from a basement, in dry weather, with a concentric pipe heat exchange
> >>> chimney inside the house, from the first floor ceiling to the basemen=

t=2E

> >>> The external "dip tube" might be a box with a transparent south side
> >>> and 150 Tyvek bags filled with desiccant clay, which can absorb 28%
> >>> of their weight in water, ie 53 pints:
> >>>http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=3DS-1606&ref=3D1006
> >>> The Florida Solar Energy Center puts clay bags on wire racks in an at=

tic

> >>> with a tin roof which heats up and dries them out during the day. Aft=

> >>> they cool, at night, they remove moisture from house air that circula=

tes

> >>> up through the attic. Here's some Desi-Pak (tm) tech info:
> >>>http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccantcity/pdfs/Desiccant%20performanc.=

.=2E

> >>> Graph 4 shows Desi-Paks can absorb 12% of their weight in 10 hours
> >>> at 30C and 60% RH, ie 2.3 pints per hour for the 189 pound collection
> >>> above. This rises with more airflow or thinner bags. Graph 3 says
> >>> they can absorb 8% in 100 hours at 25C and 10% RH, ie 0.15 pints
> >>> per hour for 189 pounds.
> >>> Nick

> > --
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> >http://www.neon-john.com
> >http://www.johndearmond.com<-- best little blog on the net!
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> > Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.- Hide =

quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -

Posted by Proctologically Violated©® on June 20, 2007, 7:58 am

On Jun 19, 9:48 pm, "Proctologically Violated©®"

> Are you all distinguishing between an indoor dehumidifier and an A/C?
> An indoor dehumidifier provides *net heat* to the space while
> dehumidifying,
> and an A/C cools, while providing the same (I think)dehumidification.
> I use both in my shop.
> Summer: A crappy Amana portable A/C, venting out of a hole in the wall,
> about 850 watts, and
> Winter: a brandX dehumidifier from Sam's/Costco, about 600 watts.
> Both produce prodigious amounts of water--the Amana, about 7,000 btu at a
> miserable 8.5 EER, cranks out about 5 gals/day, moderately humid weather.
> I wonder if a 40 W system could do that.
> An indoor dehumidifier is basically window A/C brought inside, and rigged
> in
> such a way that it doesn't freeze up. I've tried a regular window A/C as
> an
> indoor dehumidifer, and it worked, but froze.
> Also, A/C's cycle on temp, dehumidifiers cycle on, well, humidity. I have
> a
> broke dehumidifier, and I'm thinking of scavenging the humidity sensor and
> wiring it to the A/C--if that makes sense.
> --
> ------
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
> to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
> The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs

> > Nick has a "thing" for this gadget and is rehashing a "discussion" we
> > had
> > last
> > winter. He exaggerates the "badness" of dehumidifiers and IMO,
> > exaggerates the
> > goodness of his pet gadget.
> > I've measured my mid-quality GE dehumidifier using the equipment and
> > techniques
> > described here:
> >http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/Energy_Audit.htm
> > Feel free to download and use my spreadsheet. Bottom line, measuring
> > long
> > term from
> > 11/04/06 to 04/23/07, my dehumidifier used 2.03 KWH per day or about 15
> > cents' worth
> > of power at our rate. The watt-hour meter is still connected and come
> > November, I'll
> > have a year's worth of data. I suspect that Nick's gadget will operate
> > in
> > the same
> > ballpark of energy consumption. Meanwhile, my basement is both cool AND
> > precisely
> > controlled to 50% humidity. Me and my fairly large library love it.
> > There are more efficient dehumidifers available but as I correctly
> > anticipated, the
> > savings would take a lifetime to make up the difference in costs of the
> > machines.
> > John
> > wrote:

> >>I have a Sears dehumifier that is 20 years old, it had the fan go once
> >>($100 fan). The problem I see with drawing hot dry air from an attic
> >>is, it would make the basement hot. I enjoy my cool / semi dry
> >>basement because of the dehumifier. I can't see desicant doing the job
> >>a dehumifier does..... It may work but I doubt it would be an easy
> >>install.
> >>On Jun 19, 6:01 am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
> >>> >There have been lots of posts about how crappy the Kenmore 70 pint
> >>> >dehumidifiers have turned out to be. Mine broke every year for
> >>> >the 3 years I kept it...
> >>> And they use lots of electrical energy. A Smart Vent (40 watts max)
> >>> would probably last longer. It has an electronic circuit that turns
> >>> on 2 small fans whenever the dew point of outdoor air is less than
> >>> the dew point of indoor air, ie the absolute humidity of the outdoor
> >>> air is lower. The Zomeworks H2 ventilator for battery boxes seems
> >>> to do the same thing, something like this, viewed in a fixed font:
> >>> outdoors up indoors
> >>> ---------------
> >>> <-- moist air
> >>> ----------------------
> >>> | --> dry air
> >>> | -------------------
> >>> | |
> >>> | | ---------------
> >>> | | heat exchanger
> >>> | |
> >>> | | down
> >>> | |
> >>> | | dip tube
> >>> as described in Steve Baer's ASES 2004 Humidity Chimneys paper. Moist
> >>> air
> >>> is less dense than dry air, at the same temperature (hence the heat
> >>> exchanger.) Steve says a 1% moisture difference with a 2.5 foot height
> >>> difference (hence the dip tube) can make 75 feet per minute of air
> >>> flow,
> >>> so a 6" pipe with an 8' height might make Pi(3/12)^2sqrt(8/2.5)75 = 26
> >>> cfm
> >>> flow and remove about 26x60x0.075x0.01x24h = 28 pints per day of water
> >>> from a basement, in dry weather, with a concentric pipe heat exchange
> >>> chimney inside the house, from the first floor ceiling to the
> >>> basement.
> >>> The external "dip tube" might be a box with a transparent south side
> >>> and 150 Tyvek bags filled with desiccant clay, which can absorb 28%
> >>> of their weight in water, ie 53 pints:
> >>>http://www.uline.com/ProductDetail.asp?model=S-1606&ref=1006
> >>> The Florida Solar Energy Center puts clay bags on wire racks in an
> >>> attic
> >>> with a tin roof which heats up and dries them out during the day.
> >>> After
> >>> they cool, at night, they remove moisture from house air that
> >>> circulates
> >>> up through the attic. Here's some Desi-Pak (tm) tech info:
> >>>http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccantcity/pdfs/Desiccant%20performanc...
> >>> Graph 4 shows Desi-Paks can absorb 12% of their weight in 10 hours
> >>> at 30C and 60% RH, ie 2.3 pints per hour for the 189 pound collection
> >>> above. This rises with more airflow or thinner bags. Graph 3 says
> >>> they can absorb 8% in 100 hours at 25C and 10% RH, ie 0.15 pints
> >>> per hour for 189 pounds.
> >>> Nick

> - Show quoted text -

My dehumidifier does "throw" heat while running. It is in my basement
and there are no windows that would support an AC unit. I believe if I
had to do it again, a window unit would be the best of both worlds. I
would have to modify a casemount window to accomodate an AC unit.
==========================

Or get a mini-split.
They have them for as little as $500/9,000 BTU units, 10-11 EER. You'll
need a guy w/ A/C gauges etc to connect/charge the condensor to the coil.
Many of these mini's also have heatpump function.

Or the portable Amana's, etc, about $350 now. If demudification is your
primary concern, you get moderate A/C for free!
Beats heat in the summer.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

Posted by DT on June 21, 2007, 9:59 am

>Or get a mini-split.
>They have them for as little as $500/9,000 BTU units, 10-11 EER. You'll
>need a guy w/ A/C gauges etc to connect/charge the condensor to the coil.
>Many of these mini's also have heatpump function.

I got a 12,000 btu mini-split on eBay last summer and installed it myself. Many
are precharged and as long as the line lengths work for you, can be installed
easily. I'm very happy with it, and with careful positioning it does almost all
of my 1st floor (I have a fairly open plan home).

I had to install custom line lengths, so I needed to cut and re-flare the line
sets. I do have a vacuum pump and evacuated and leak-checked my lines, although
the procedure that is outlined in the installation manual just used a timed
blow-down based on the length of the line.

--
Dennis

Posted by Proctologically Violated©® on June 21, 2007, 2:47 pm

Interesting.
Where did you get your A/C tools from? Straightforward to use?

I thought the lines had to be hard brazed/soldered.
Isn't flaring asking for trouble?

I would love to be able to do this myself. Really want to put the whole
house on a bunch of minisplits. Got central A/C w/ essentially zero zoning,
and it's killing me.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

>>Or get a mini-split.
>>They have them for as little as $500/9,000 BTU units, 10-11 EER. You'll
>>need a guy w/ A/C gauges etc to connect/charge the condensor to the coil.
>>Many of these mini's also have heatpump function.

> I got a 12,000 btu mini-split on eBay last summer and installed it myself.
> Many
> are precharged and as long as the line lengths work for you, can be
> installed
> easily. I'm very happy with it, and with careful positioning it does
> almost all
> of my 1st floor (I have a fairly open plan home).
> I had to install custom line lengths, so I needed to cut and re-flare the
> line
> sets. I do have a vacuum pump and evacuated and leak-checked my lines,
> although
> the procedure that is outlined in the installation manual just used a
> timed
> blow-down based on the length of the line.
> --
> Dennis
>

Posted by DT on June 21, 2007, 4:18 pm

entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net says...

>Interesting.
>Where did you get your A/C tools from? Straightforward to use?
>I thought the lines had to be hard brazed/soldered.
>Isn't flaring asking for trouble?
>I would love to be able to do this myself. Really want to put the whole
>house on a bunch of minisplits. Got central A/C w/ essentially zero zoning,
>and it's killing me.

Flared line sets are the norm for mini-splits, every one I looked at came that
way. The higher priced ones may have dry-break quick connects, although the
flared sets are also called 'quick connect' by many sellers so you really need
to ask questions about ones you are interested in. Mine has been running a year
and a half, fine so far, the brand name is Celiera.

I can't see any differences between the different units I was shopping for. The
wall units are identical, they all use compressors from the same 1 or 2
manufacturers, the controls work the same, etc. The refrigerant is stored in
the outdoor unit, and will purge and fill a specified maximum line length
(usually 24 feet or so), if you need longer lines, you will need a pro to fill
it and add more for any of the units.

You don't need any HVAC tools if you are willing to go with the
standard installation method. You hook up the lines, look your line length up
in a chart, set the valves in a certain sequence and finally purge the line-set
and indoor unit by opening the shut off valve a quarter turn for X number of
seconds. This is calculated to purge out the air, but shut off just as the
refrigerant comes out.

Not a precise method in my mind (Hell, I'm not even sure if it's legal anymore,
but that's the factory method) so I evacuated everything and filled into the
evacuated system. I would suggest that is always a *better* way to go, since
then you can be assured the flares are OK if they hold vacuum. I do have a
lot of experience with flaring lines for a variety of exotic fluids so I am
pretty confident with it. You could also add Voishan washers under the flares
if you wanted, but soft copper seals quite well.

My vacuum pump is just a small Kinney lab pump, but HVAC pumps are readily
available and are not too expensive. Many people use salvaged refigerator
compressors for occasional HVAC use. The refrigerant on my unit uses the same
fittings as R12, standard 1/4" flare, so it is easy to hook up. The new higher
SEER may use a different fitting, they have a different refrigerant.

Dennis

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