heater guy says replace furnace/AC

Posted by JRStern on November 2, 2009, 11:33 pm

>Get several estimates on the same equipment. Installation is going to be
>your biggest concern.
>Off hand, I couldn't afford to live in LA, with prices like that!

Part of the price is squeezing the stuff down a 4x4' trap door into a
10x10' basement. I think the estimate was generous for the
aggravation.

BTW, it looks like the installation price 25 years ago, was very
nearly as high! I get the feeling that was not well priced back then!

Thanks for the other numbers, helps a lot.

J.

>I just replaced my own HW tank, ran me $450, and I was having a cow because
>the last one was under $300. They changed the ignition, EPA regs or
>something or other. But $1,500 for a gas fired one seems awful steep.
>There's not much to installing one.
>It's been 5 yrs for a furnace change out, along with A/C changed out. At
>the time I had a 80% Carrier 2stage gas fired furnace, plus 11 seer a/c
>unit installed. All 3 companies did a manual J? or something or other.
>Ironically, 2 companies recommended the exact same equipment. The one
>company came in almost $2,500 higher, than the other company. I flat out
>told the guy he was that much higher. He asked the other company, said he
>started out working for them, and didn't have 1 bad thing to say about
>them. Just wondered how they could do it that cheap. I got everything
>installed, plus permit for $5K. They had to do some new duct work since I
>had an EAC installed also. Forget what the EAC ran me, but the duct work
>was included in the price of the furnace install. Everything was phoned
>into the shop for the sheet metal work, delivered within a couple hours.
>Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
>together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal &
>took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
>to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other one.
>I thought about going with a higher rated furnace, but heard pros & cons
>about it. Mainly cost and how long it would take to get back.
>I heard a/c has to be at least 12 seer now.
>Do yourself a huge favor, and get several estimates, on comparable
>equipment.

Posted by Pete C. on November 3, 2009, 12:33 pm

Todd wrote:

> > When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?
> > Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
> > I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
> > basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
> > stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.
> > System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
> > the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
> > waiting.
> > So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
> > off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
> > a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
> > the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
> > replace it, too, for another $1,500.
> > Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
> > like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
> > Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.
> > This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.
> > What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
> > Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?
> > The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
> > of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
> > what I mean.
> > Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.

>
> Get several estimates on the same equipment. Installation is going to be
> your biggest concern.
>
> Off hand, I couldn't afford to live in LA, with prices like that!
>
> I just replaced my own HW tank, ran me $450, and I was having a cow because
> the last one was under $300. They changed the ignition, EPA regs or
> something or other. But $1,500 for a gas fired one seems awful steep.
> There's not much to installing one.
>
> It's been 5 yrs for a furnace change out, along with A/C changed out. At
> the time I had a 80% Carrier 2stage gas fired furnace, plus 11 seer a/c
> unit installed. All 3 companies did a manual J? or something or other.
> Ironically, 2 companies recommended the exact same equipment. The one
> company came in almost $2,500 higher, than the other company. I flat out
> told the guy he was that much higher. He asked the other company, said he
> started out working for them, and didn't have 1 bad thing to say about
> them. Just wondered how they could do it that cheap. I got everything
> installed, plus permit for $5K. They had to do some new duct work since I
> had an EAC installed also. Forget what the EAC ran me, but the duct work
> was included in the price of the furnace install. Everything was phoned
> into the shop for the sheet metal work, delivered within a couple hours.
> Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
> together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal &
> took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
> to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other one.
>
> I thought about going with a higher rated furnace, but heard pros & cons
> about it. Mainly cost and how long it would take to get back.
>
> I heard a/c has to be at least 12 seer now.
>
> Do yourself a huge favor, and get several estimates, on comparable
> equipment.

I expect the way the company could do the install so cheap was their
very efficient organization. Phoning in the duct info to someone back at
the shop vs. trucking back and forth, with nothing being done on side
during transit time could greatly increase the time to completion and
therefore the total labor costs and the number of jobs that could be
completed in a day.

Posted by Robert Green on November 4, 2009, 7:40 am

> Was a pretty neat operation, the 2 guys worked like a well oiled machine
> together. Parts guy delivered the equipment, then brought the sheet metal

> took away the old. Very well organized company. The 2 installers belonged
> to different unions. One was pipefitters, & I totally forget the other

one.

You've described perfectly why it's much easier to "rip and replace" than to
repair something 25 years old that's been "worked on" by who knows how many
other people including the home-owner or his over-ambitious teen-age son.
Instead of working with an unknown entity, they are working with something
they've probably installed new several hundred times and the only tough part
is to shoehorn the new system into the old ductwork.

From what you describe, good installers have that base well-covered, too,
because each time an installer has to return, it's profit lost, so they've
honed it to a one-day process. Most new furnaces are much smaller than the
ones they are replacing, so fitting them is easy, sometimes easier than
opening the old furnace, pulling the exchanger, getting a replacement and
then returning to re-install it, test it, close it back up and discover that
something else is wrong that wasn't apparent the first time around.

The problem I have is when they start pulling 5 year old systems because
it's easier to "rip and replace" than spend any time diagnosing any but the
simplest failures. If you replace too soon, higher efficiency is offset
mightily by the dollars that got dragged off with the old furnace.

Todd, you're 101% about getting several estimates. Even if the cold winter
is approaching, buy a space heater, bite the bullet, do the research. It's
never, ever been easier to find out if a vendor is taking you for a ride
because you can plug in the estimate numbers on Google and get a very good
idea of the prices others are charging.

Once a vendor knows you've been talking to other vendors, a sort of Ebay
auction frenzy takes place and they almost all will cut you a deal in this
economic climate. The only one that might not will probably be the lowest
bid because they can't go lower without doing the job at a loss. There's
never a better time to do home improvement work than right after a big
housing boom busts when there are still plenty of contractors around who
haven't bitten the bullet and found other work. )-:

--
Bobby G.

Posted by Walter R. on November 3, 2009, 1:00 am

Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each,
courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.

25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for
the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $
100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to
pay for high efficiency units.

--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-

> When can these things be repaired, versus being replaced?
> Forced-air gas heater didn't seem to be sending up any heat today, so
> I cycled it a bunch of times, then finally descended to the 10x10
> basement where it lives. Flame would come on, after a minute or three,
> stay on for 10 seconds, then go out again. Blower kept blowing.
> System was working fine two days ago - but for some years, it has had
> the habit of turning on only slowly, after a minute or three of
> waiting.
> So I called one of the big chain repair places, they came in, popped
> off the cover, told me the pilot was getting sucked away, and this was
> a sign that the whole thing needs replacing, for about $10k. Plus,
> the water heater looks like it's had a couple of leaks, might want to
> replace it, too, for another $1,500.
> Heat/Air is a Carrier unit circa 1984 (house much older), so it's not
> like a newer, higher-efficiency unit might not be a good idea anyway.
> Not sure of the water heater age, probably not that old.
> This is a unit for a 2,000sqft house in suburban Los Angeles.
> What surprises me is how quick the repair guys went to "Replace!".
> Can't these things be repaired? How complex is a gas furnace anyway?
> The repair guys seemed to know their business, I just wonder how much
> of their business is doing replacement rather than repair, if you know
> what I mean.
> Me being a total newbie on this, any advice appreciated.
> Thanks.
> Josh
>

Posted by JRStern on November 3, 2009, 2:50 am

>Inland San Diego, which is probably similar to your location in LA.

Yes.

>We had our 25 year old hot-air gas furnaces and airconditioners (3 ton each)
>replaced 2 years ago. Installed price was 8,000. Bids ranged from 16,000 to
>7,000. You need to do a lot more homework. Also, make sure to take out a
>permit. As part of the replacement you are required by law to have a
>verification of your duct system. This cost another $ 500. If you don't do
>it, it will bite you when you sell the house.

We probably have some old asbestos hanging around,
how much of a $$ is that likely to be?

>Also replaced our two water heaters, 40 gal. gas, last year: $ 800 each,
>courtesy Home Depot. At $ 1500 for one, you are getting ripped off.

I guess I could call them for an estimate,
but they don't do the work, do they, just hook
you up with some "approved vendors"?

Again, these (both furnace and water heater) have to be manually
hauled into a very inconvenient hole - or else installed
in a new outside shelter somewhere. I can see a hundred dollars
or more premium for the difficulty. And they were saying new
ducts are necessary, another couple of hundred, I guess. But it
still may be high, thanks.

>25 years is about the maximum life expectancy for gas furnaces. Don't go for
>the expensive, high efficiency furnaces and air conditioners. We pay about $
>100 a year for air conditioning electricity. Would take several lifetimes to
>pay for high efficiency units.

Excellent point, thanks.

Even the run of the mill is probably a lot more efficient than
these old models, 1984 was just before the more-efficient appliances
movements began.

J.

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heater guy says replace furnace/AC - Page 5